#55 How Can She Be Independent If a Man Always Pays?

0 Posted by - September 18, 2009 - 30 in 30, Pt. 3, Relationships, Love & Marriage

jay-dont-pay

Back in July I did a post called, “How Much Do You Spend on a Date? (Cheap Women)” that basically validated my theory that most women don’t plan on spending a dime when they go out with a guy. To prove my point, I polled a bunch of guys and gals about their dating spending habits.

Originally, I planned to post the results along with the main post but I got a bit longwinded in my argument and it would have been way too much to read in one sitting. Well, I was going through my files the other day and came across the poll. There were actually some pretty interesting comments in there so I decided to post it and add my two cents where I felt necessary.

Overall, I think my position still stands: A lot of women want the perks of 21st Century independence, while still holding on to 19th Century gender rules. Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with chivalry, I just think there needs to be a little more leeway—especially given the economic times we’re living in. In fact, you can read more on my personal experiences with dating in the recession in the On His Mind column in the new issue of Essence, which is on stands now (Mary J. Blige cover).

Without further ado, here are the poll results. Feel free to share your thoughts on whether or not you agree with the opinions below. More importantly, do you think that a woman can be considered independent if she expects a man to pay her way most of the times?

Speak your piece…

***POLL RESULTS***

LADIES

Bachelorette #1
“The first date I may not (won’t really) spend in the hundreds, but if we’ve been dating awhile I may go all out. If we talking averages, about $60. You don’t have to spend a lot to have a good time with someone.”

Bachelorette #2
“I generally don’t spend any money if it’s a ‘romantic date.’ If it’s more casual with a friend, I half it. Typically, all of my outings for dinner are $50 total.”

Bachelorette #3
“If I’m on a date I feel that the gentlemanly thing to do is for him to take care of the finances. I don’t mind paying for something small or paying for something if he pays for everything always. It’s old fashioned but that’s the way I was raised.”
NWSO SAYS: “I’ve always wondered; what exactly is the ‘gentlewomanly’ thing to do?”

Bachelorette #4
“I go Dutch most times unless it’s a first date and he invited but if I invited it’s my treat. I been with my BF for a minute, though, so I’ll probably pay for the movies, while he pays for dinner or vice versa. I’d say about $25-30 each—we don’t do it big like we used to. LOL.”
NWSO SAYS: “We’ve already seen that the likelihood of a woman actually asking a man out is nil, so the ‘if I invited him it’s my treat’ is probably a bunch of bologna for most.”

Bachelorette #5
“Well, considering I’ve never been on a date I didn’t pay for (believe it or not) on average getting ready for the date $75. Actually, I think from $50-150 is the most I’ve spent on an outfit. Nothing fancy and I’m cheap.”
NWSO SAYS: “SMH. I love how getting ‘ready’ for a date equates to ‘paying’ for a date. What’s wrong with the clothes already in your closet? And if $150 is ‘cheap’ I’d hate to see ‘expensive.’”

Bachelorette #6
“I don’t have a limit with dating and going out with friends. As long as we have a good time that’s all I care about! If they’re paying I will always offer to leave a tip, pay for the next activity or pick up the tab next time around. I don’t go by ‘the rules’ and I’ve paid first plenty of times.”
NWSO SAYS: “Definitely my kinda girl.”

Bachelorette #7
“What the hell is a date? LOL. Nah, I spend anywhere from $10 to $40, usually split, depending where the date is. Sometimes extra for cab ride home—I’m low maintenance.”

Bachelorette #8
“When I go on a date I spend nothing on the actual date, but I have started offering the tip. With the boo, sometimes I’ll treat him. Men are usually surprised when you just whip out the card and pay like money ain’t a thing. I also feel it ups my confidence like, No, ni**a, I don’t need you. Overall I’m the kind that still believes in him paying and opening doors, but at the end of the night it’s whatever works.”

Bachelorette #9
“It would definitely depend on the activities, but usually if I go on a dinner/movie date, the guy picks up the dinner bill and I’ll get the movies. Some guys are funny about girls offering payment, so sometimes it makes for an awkward situation. There’s also times I pick up the dinner bill, however, usually never the case for a first date. My friend’s mother once said, ‘Stay out that man’s pocket.’ She felt you should always let the man pay because it makes him feel like he is being the man and being the provider.”

Bachelorette #10
“The highest I’ve gone on a date was $80, but that was for the brother’s birthday before I knew better! Now I keep it light; dinner and a movie, $50-60 range.”
NWSO SAYS: “Wait, so a brother only gets love on his birthday? What part of the game is that?”

GENTS

Bachelor #1
“If we are feeling each other I will go in to the tune of $150-200. If you are acting all snooty and stuck up, you may be ordering your food off the value meal chart. LOL.”

Bachelor #2
“First date budget is about $150. Dinner, movie and gas.”

Bachelor #3
“When I was doing well I would spend $60-100 on a date. That would be dinner, movies and cab rides for both of us. Now times are hard I spend $0-40.”

Bachelor #4
“I rather go Dutch. One time it backfired on me though. I took a girl out, had her pay HER way and never got the pu**y. Still regret that sh*t. There’s no price [on ass] but for that time, it was only $20-something. Sure, it was a small amount, but I was tired of spending money on women.”
NWSO SAYS: “No comment. LOL.”

Bachelor #5
“I spend anywhere from free.99 to about $100 on a date. Depends on how our relationship is going and if the girl is down to go see some places that don’t require a lot of money to be spent.”

Bachelor #6
“I don’t date very much; but most that I’ve went on have actually been Dutch. So I’ll spend around $20.”

Bachelor #7
“On average I’ll say about $56. But there’s a definite double standard. Don’t be mad that we call you a hoe ’cause you slept with a five guys and that we males will get a pat on the back for doing the same. Because I won’t be mad that I have to pay for our outings, and you can save your money for rent.”
NWSO SAYS: “I honestly have no idea what he’s talking about.”

Bachelor #8
“For a first date I’ll probably spend between $40-60, because sometimes the chick will actually pay for something.”

Bachelor #9
“A cheap date would be $50, but if she got wifey potential it could be $150-$200 between nice dinner, cabs and drinks for a special occasion… NYC ain’t cheap no more.”

Bachelor #10
“For me, I would say maybe close to $100—that’s if it’s the dinner and movie thing. Otherwise, it could be nothing; I just take her to a nice scenic place and chill and have conversation.”

fighting-over-money

  • Elle

    LoL … you can’t let that topic go, huh?

    Independence – in my book – has nothing to do with paying for my side of the date. Independence is a given once you reach a certain age. Anything else is unacceptable. I don’t really see why it is being brought up in a dating scenario. Independence is defined by other corner stones than going dutch. Unless we start calling every man “dependent” who allows his girl to fix him a plate, do his laundry or bring him a cold beer during the game. Come on now. It’s not that serious.

    If you don’t want to spend money on a woman, you don’t have to. Men act like they are being forced knowing damn well that’s not the case. Do something which doesn’t cost a dime. Or don’t date period.

  • Slim Jackson

    It’s funny that you posted this. First thing I thought of is a post my boy wrote for my site called Independent, but Dependent, Women. Folks were going back and forth about what defines independence and when a women needs to look to a man. Some of the peeps you polled look like folks who commented on the post. Check it out and ish.

    http://www.threewaystotakeit.com/independent-women/

  • GV1584

    Cosign with Elle!

    I missed out on the original debate so I’m gonna add my two cents if I may… There is no way I would let a guy pay for me on a first date. In fact I’ve always gone dutch or offered to pay out whole (though admittedly I’m a little cautious of bruising egos). I don’t feel fully comfortable about letting someone else pay for me until we reach the point in a relationship where we’re ALMOST (almost being the key word here) at the point where it doesn’t matter who’s money it is because it’s ‘our’ money if you get my point i.e. working towards shared goals.

    There was one night where I’d stayed out in central London past the time when overground trains stopped running and the guy I was with actually paid £60 (about $100) just for my taxi home! I didn’t have enough cash on me at the time but the next day I promptly had to give him every single penny back without trying to offend him. I don’t know I just don’t feel comfortable with other people paying for me! In my books, the act of looking out for me like that was gentlemanly enough, I didn’t need his money as well.

    I have one friend, on the other hand, who is a firm believer of the ‘he asked therefore he pays’ rule. When taken out on dates she always opts for the most expensive dishes like the lobster or crab and expects the guy to pay for her. lol. What makes it funnier is the fact that this girl has a pretty decent well paying job and can easily pay for the whole date!

  • Sean

    Ok obviously Elle have never offered to pay for a date before. This is whats funny with women when you tell them listen I’m broke don’t get paid till next week so unless your paying we not going out 80% of these “independent women” will wait till next week. Your right NWSO its like they don’t consider we have bills to pay too an all our money cant go to showing
    them a good time.

    P.S. GV1584 You think like a Capricorn

  • Elle

    Um Sean, I don’t think you have been on a date with me, have you? At least I do not remember you.

    1. I steer guys into the direction of doing something for the first few dates which doesn’t cost a dime because I do not feel comfortable when a stranger spends his hard earned cash on me. After all, I would sort of feel like I owe him – and that is a feeling I HATE.

    2. I always bring enough money with me and order with my own money in mind. When the check comes I ALWAYS offer to go dutch. If he reclines, so be it. But I make sure I can afford what I am ordering.

    3. If he paid for a date, you can be sure I’ll be treating on the next.

    So don’t give me that BS. If you don’t have money to go out on a date, I’ll gladly come over and cook, watch some DVDs or just chill. Dating does not require huge amounts of money. Hell, I don’t mind beating on your ass on the PS3 if that’s all that is within your budget. It’s about spending time, not spending money.

    I’ll repeat: It’s not that big of a deal. Dating doesn’t have to be costly. My exes were all dead broke despite working their butts off. Yet and still I do not remember being bored or lacking fun dates during our relationships.

  • Tiara

    Thank you elle!!!
    this topic is so not that serious. i totally agree with your first comment.

  • Kwana AKA OrangeStar AKA Phoenix7

    I co sign the following sentence like a mug..

    “Independence – in my book – has nothing to do with paying for my side of the date.”

  • MsKaos

    Men offer to wine and dine women at nice (i.e. expensive) places to impress her at first then want to say, “hold up,” when she comes to expect that treatment and expects that you pay for it. You can’t have it both ways. If your pockets aren’t lined like that, then you need to choose the ladies you date and the activities on said date more wisely.

    First few dates I never paid, not b/c I refused to, but because I dated men who, when I offered, they declined. I wasnt going to fight with them to take my money, but if they wanted to go dutch, I had my money ready. Like Elle, I ordered with MY money in mind, not trying to break his piggy bank. After a while of dating, the line of “whose money is it” gets blurred. He might pay for dinner out, but I’m keeping the fridge at my place stocked with groceries (which aint cheap in NYC) so that a brotha has something to eat when he comes over.

    I’ve dated men in the past that would be offended that I offered to pay for a date, but had no issue eating my Sunday dinner (from groceries that I paid for without any help from him!)…is he dependent on me cause I cooked a meal? I think not! So why would I be dependent on him for picking up the tab at a restaurant?!

    We need to be upfront from jump and if you arent planning to pay her half for a date just say so while you’re making plans. Some woman might not be down and if that’s a deal breaker for you, she just saved you some time and effort. If she’s like many women, she’ll roll with it.

  • menluvmysmile

    I agree with Elle 100% and honestly women aren’t given enough credit. The ones who give us a bad name are miserly(=would rather spend someone else’s money than their own) and really you can spot someone like that easily,if you just open your ears and eyes!!!!

    In this day in age this shouldn’t be that serious, and if it is for you then maybe some time alone to sort your jilted feelings about your bad dates that costed you a fortune may be what is needed to grant some perspective!

  • sylkiifeather

    well, for me the issue is even getting a date in the first place lol. no not because im unattractive. im 23 and guys my age around here dont really do dates. they usually want to “chill” (which we all know really means…”lets hang out at my place alone so that it can eventually lead to sex lol).

    but, i do expect the guy to pay for the date. because those are pretty much the “rules” of society. and no i dont agree with the rules necessarily…but men shouldnt complain about the negative aspects of being a man, since this is a patriarchal society and men are usually in power…there are so many positives about being a man in this society, so deal with the negatives lol. but if i go out on a date with a guy and i happen to like him…then the next thing we do doesnt have to be a date (or at least not a typical date…dinner/movie). i actually enjoy doing more romantic/corny (lol) things with a guy, such as just walking a trail or something else free. so i dont expect money to be dished out on a regular basis. but part of dating is courting a woman, so dont complain about it.

    but to answer the title…how can she be independent if he always pays? i feel that as far as dating goes, a woman being independent is about the fact that she is ABLE to pay for her own dinner or movie. if a man always pays because she CANT pay for the meal/ticket, then she is not independent.

    but if im in a relationship, then its usually either 50/50 or whoever happens to have the most money at the time. but if you were lucky enough or special enough for me to get into a relationship with, then you are special enough for me to spend my money on.

  • http://thoughtsof100k.blogspot.com 100K

    It is so funny that this came up.

    I was on a date with this girl this week and she had a habit of talking this independent shit. How when she invites a dude out, she’d pay because I told her I believe whoever invites should pay.

    She texts me so I get there after work and we order the food. The bill comes and the tension is think. she goes to the restroom and the bill is still there when she comes back so then she asks if I can at least pay my half…

    I’m like WTF…I didnt pay off the principle.

  • Torrey

    If you’re dating a woman who is “beaten down” with your inability to meet her financial standards (first date or otherwise), isn’t that a clear sign that she is not the one? Goes vice versa also.

  • Rastaman

    @ sylkiifeather

    The debate over paying on a date is older than ur 23 years and i hae yet to see the rule book about men being required to pay.

    I have been lucky in my dating life to have been with a majority of women who have never acted entitled to footing the bill and I have to say i have felt quite good about paying for them. Primarily because I know they will take care of me another time. If it is a first date and the lady offers to pay or split the bill, I am not the declining type. Her money is definitely as good as mines.

    @100K – A little knowledge, the women who are always advertising how “independent” they are, are usually the least so. Last year I dated a woman who had the “Independent Woman” song as her ringtone came to find out she was a broke ass, which is not that bad unless you always suggesting places we can go to spend my money.

    We all carry round with us a sense of entitlement about somethings for many women it is the view that men should always pay. I don’t go to any woman’s house expecting a hot plate or a cold beer well except if it’s Moms.

    Plus if I am looking for a sandwich that means I am probably going to be putting in work and she is probably happy to make it for me after that…LOL!!

  • DC Man With a Plan

    lmao……..just when I thought Elle was gonna be my new virtual baby…….HERE we go with THIS ish again…..don’t date? As in, have no opportunity to be with the opposite sex? Come on now, you’re right: it really isn’t THAT serious. Talk of money shouldn’t result in women expressing ultimatums. And independence is associated with this topic becuz dating is part of a woman’s life too, yet y’all don’t understand the financial demands dating places on a man bcuz y’all wanna claim “tradition” for this one. How about the tradition where you stay bare-foot and pregnant, where you’re seen but not heard? Not too many of y’all like THOSE traditions of the past, so don’t act like being ‘traditional’ is all that. You’re only traditional where it benefits you–which is human nature, but don’t front like God said it should be this way. I really get a kick out of women who say and think: who ever asks the other out for a date should pay…then we SEE in another blog about women asking men out on dates that very FEW are willing to do that, ergo….MEN pay, men chase and MEN call the game what it is. We dig into our pockets bcuz that’s the nature of the game–and it is a game until such time as the ppl involved decide to stop playing. Most women are NOT independent bcuz you use the companionship of a man to extend your budget, to assist you in going to new, trendy places. Ask women how many will go to the movies or to dinner alone and you’ll see FEW hands rise, so don’t act like all of a sudden y’all don’t need, desire and want a man…Y’all just want it for as little personal cost as possible. And you know what…..so do we!

  • Anonymous

    I wouldn’t use the word “traditional” as much as I would use the word “roles” in this scenario. Society and time have placed gender roles that have “traditionally” led men to pay for dates. However, as women we have fought for our “independence” from the negative situations that these “”roles” have imposed on us. i.e. women not having power in the work place, not making as much as men, being termed emotional etc. I think we are slowly but surely making some headway in that category. But, we haven’t completely moved away from traditional mindsets which explains why we feel comfortable assuming or allowing a man to pay for a date.

    Reality is, many men want to pay for the date because they want to show that they can. A lot of men I have encountered go out of their way to impress and sometimes money is how they do it. I think there are a lot of confusing/conflicting opinions out there. For instance, Steve Harvey writes a book which a LOT of men agree with that says you bruise a mans ego when you challenge their right or ability to provide. But then, we get men like yourself who feel that women are not stepping up to the plate if they dont share equal burdens. I think what you need to do NWSO is analyze each woman individually. You dont know what their backgrounds or experiences have led them to practice and you can find out more as you get to know them. Do not categorize by implying women are unreasonable and want a free ride.

    I don’t walk around claiming independence but I am an educated working woman and have found that being in that category brings me a new set of dating challenges. Some men seem to expect that I will be intimidating and others go out of their way to force me to use my money because they say I “got it”. I dont mind spending my money when I want to have a good time or on a date (first date or not). But what surprises me is that these same menn in general wont give me due credit for making my money. If they see my house or car they immediatley assume I get “help” from some outside source. I dont mean to go off topic here but what I am getting at is that the issue has many layers and as women we fight many perceptions. Sometimes, it makes it difficult for us to date.

    Try to be a little more openminded about the whole thing. If you are dating different women and getting the same frame of refeence and the same way of thinking. then maybe you should date a different kind of woman.

  • boomsilent

    Wow.

    Did Elle just turn into superwoman?

    Cooking and PS3?

    “..Baby, You Got Me. ” – The Roots

    Seriously.

  • da ThRONe

    Its funny its always not serious when they arent expected to pay! :|

  • Elle

    Um DC, where did I say I didn’t want to pay/go dutch? And where did I say I didn’t date. I mean I don’t but I never mentioned it. I think you’re mistaking me.

    @boomsilent
    OoOOoh that’s my song.

    And yep, I love both.

    NFS or Halo anyone?

  • http://www.brandonsaintrandy.wordpress.com Brandon St. Randy

    This topic truly never dies. Here’s a simple take on why men pay for first dates. It’s called auction theory economics. Let’s assume in the “traditional” model, men are the bidders and women are the asset sellers (Overly simplistic, but let’s go with it). To further simplify, let’s assume that the bidders are undifferentiated except for their bid limit. The auction venue is just life. The club, social circle, whatever. There are certain high quality assets which every bidder wants and lower quality assets which are more like commodities. Bidders will pay a premium for the quality assets and may assign it special value, and will bid up the cost of attaining it (her). The commodity asset will be uncompetitive and get few if any bids. They will have to display value in terms of a discounted cost to acquire or adding value through some other medium (sex, cooking, paying for date.) Assuming a functioning date economy, the multiple bidders will arrive at market equilibrium pricing for each asset class.

    In real world terms, what that means is women who look like Jessica White and Meagan Good will attract bidders who have money and are willing to spend it to acquire her. Women who look like Big Shirley won’t have any bidders and will have to either put out or do something else interesting to get someone to spend time or money on them. Men able and willing to spend this money will have access to acquire Jessica and Meagan, and those who don’t will have Big Shirley. This may seem unfair, but assuming the seller has a choice between a lower and a higher bid, and no other differences in bidder, the seller would be an idiot to take the lower bid.

    Fortunately, there are tons of other variables in real life, and dating is a notoriously inefficient market, so this theory only goes so far.

  • Rastaman

    @Brandon St. Randy

    What happens when the asset looks like Big Shirley and thinks it is Meagan Goode?

    Which value do you assign?

  • http://www.brandonsaintrandy.wordpress.com Brandon St. Randy

    @rastaman:

    Typically, bidders will assign a Big Shirley value. If their marketing is good enough, they may be able to get someone to overbid though.

    Typically, however, these become what is known as “wasting assets.” Meaning that as time goes on, their value further decreases and it becomes even more difficult to find a buyer. Sellers who have mispriced their assets often become frustrated and delusional that the market has assigned a lower value for the asset than their appraisal. They point to inappropriate “comps” such as their better looking or nicer friends to justify their asking price. Or they attempt to inflate value by pointing to non decision factor features such as “insert school name here” advanced degree or “independence” or the old stanby, “good woman.” Often, these become “toxic assets” because their sense of entitlement and bitterness ensures that no one will bid. Some of them will receive a bailout in the form of a “simp.”

  • GV1584

    @ Sean, I think like a Capricorn?? Is that a good thing or a bad thing!? FYI I’m an aquarius!

    @ Brandon St. Randy, as someone with a finance background that was a great analogy, but there are so many flaws when that theory is put into practice! For example, in reality the differences between bidders are huge and the seller most definitely does not base decisions on how high/low the bid is. I love it though!

    @ Rastaman LMAO!! omg too funny!

  • GV1584

    @Brandon St Randy just read your second post, you are so wrong for that! lol

  • Hannah

    this post makes me all kinds of sad.

    @NWSO
    You don’t know any women that will sit down with you for just the pleasure of your company with no expectations? Who enjoys you so much it’s not about who pays, but really about the good times you have? Maybe you need to roll with a different crew of women.

    I’m a woman who bucks convention and traditional gender roles . I have no problem asking a man out or paying for a date, I just expect reciprocity and if we get serious, your credit has to be at least as good as mine. I find that men are more caught up in their wallet than women are.They seem to think that their manhood is all tied up in their wallet. The bigger the bankroll….you get the picture. They feel like they can’t be cockstrong if their pockets are tight. You practically have to arm wrestle a dude if you reach for the bill first and if you pay it, he’s all wounded about it.

    I find that paying for dinner/presents etc is usually posturing and I’m much more interested in who you actually are as opposed to who you pretend to be. The best first date I’ve ever been on was also the cheapest. We sat in a park, had convo and got to know each other.

    It’s so not about the paper. It’s about who you are. I’d take a corner cart falafel with an amazing guy over a fancy dinner with an asshole who thought I owed him the panties ’cause he spent a mint.

    @Brandon
    Men who make analogies like the one you made make me wish women would pull a Lysistrata until patriarchy was dead. You make me wish I knew your real name so I could put you on an International Do Not Fuck list.

  • Brooklyn Ice

    Aaaah…I didn’t read the comments yet BUT, “gentlewomanly” thing to do: offer to pay the tip, offer to pay transpo (nyc..if you cabbin it there and back), pay for the movie (if you’re doing dinner and a movie”
    AND WORD TO HERB Bachelorette #7: What is a date again?? He pays for something? He’s a gentleman?? WORD??! Hehe…I kid

  • http://www.myspace.com/jigeenakjigeen Nana Ataa

    I have to agree with Elle’s first comment: “Independence – in my book – has nothing to do with paying for my side of the date. Independence is a given once you reach a certain age…If you don’t want to spend money on a woman, you don’t have to. Men act like they are being forced knowing damn well that’s not the case.”

    There is a big difference between independence/ maturity/self-reliance and selfishness/greed. If you are dating just to have random companionship / sex – it’s not really a big deal. Male or female – you have the money, you want to have a good time – you should be prepared to pay for what you want.

    If you don’t have the money – and if you feel that’s the only thing that you should have going for you that makes you desirable to the opposite sex – then you are going to have to be ultra-selective about who you really want to spend your time with…

    There are a lot of quality people out here who are not high maintenance. You can have thousands of dollars to spend on a date (or 2 or 3) with me – but if you won’t carry a conversation, you are absolutely horrible in bed, if the date has no forethought – nothing to do with anything you’ve learned about me that I can enjoy and appreciate…You are wasting your hard earned money on me.

    In general – if you are dating with the hopes, or in the context of meeting a suitable life partner – then men should understand that no matter how financially independent the person you are attracted to may be – your ability to provide for her and your future family can be a major determinant of whether she will want to be with you for the long haul.

    While I don’t consider Steve Harvey “the relationship authority”, he did make a compelling argument in his book: “Now I know that expecting a man to care for you financially, no questions asked, in an age in which women have been raised to be financially independent of men gives you pause; and if you’ve been taught all your life to go dutch on dates and pull out your own checkbook when it comes to paying your bills, and you’ve been repeatedly told that you can’t depend on a man to do anything for you, then it’s understandable why you can’t wrap your mind around this simple concept. But remember what drives a man; real men do what they have to do to make sure their people are taken care of, clothed, housed, and reasonably satisfied, and if they’re doing anything less than that, they’re not men – or shall we say, he’s not your man, because he will eventually do this for someone’s daughter, maybe not you…Know this: It is your right to expect that a man will pay for your dinner, your movie ticket, your club entry fee, or whatever else he has to pay IN EXCHANGE FOR YOUR TIME.”

    That’s coming from a man. And he has become quite popular in recent months promoting this belief to Black women around the country.

    IMO – It’s whatever works well between 2 people. If either person doesn’t know, then they should ask up front – to clear the air. I personally am not good at accepting money or favors from other people, and I carry a guilty conscious if anyone pays anything for me.

    By the same token – I also know first hand what happens (negatively) when women shell out cash, favors, and gifts repeatedly during the dating game and later during marriage – these behaviors (often thought to attract and keep men close and loyal to us independent women) are often taken for granted, not often reciprocated, or taken advantage of.

    And then the dude somehow will hook up, even marry the girl that makes him not only pay for everything, but pay for her daily maintenance, like rent, nails, hair, massages, pets, car as well.

  • http://www.myspace.com/jigeenakjigeen Nana Ataa

    @ Hannah: I completely cosign. Well-said.

  • Naked Snake

    Women are so confused… but men are even more confused. Its like the blind leading the blind, in fact it is the blind leading the blind.

  • Rastaman

    @Nana Ataa

    Are your conclusions statistically based or anecdotal?

    I am go out on a limb and assume it is the latter. If I am paying for your time what is the difference between you and a prostitute?

    Since by virtue of her business I am also paying for her time and companionship also. Probably why some women dislike prostitution so much, it cuts into their potential market.

    There are lots of women out there who are not as mercenary as you or Steve Harvey may think. I am quite certain they do just well or even better.

    Remember if i can pay for your time what is to stop me from buying the other woman’s time also. If you treat yourself as a commodity don’t be surprised when others want to treat you the same way (negatively)

    Entitlements work both ways baby!!

  • Lonias

    @ Rastaman
    Entitlement?
    What does that look like?
    ___________________________________

    Here’s the problem I am having with this (ongoing) discussion:

    I am hearing that men are afraid to be taken advantage of…period. This is the general gist/concern.

    My questions:

    What business do you have with me if you cannot make a cursory judgement about my character before hand?

    Should we be going out if you think I might feel “entitled” to what’s in your wallet?

    Maybe you should observe me in my own environment before asking me out…

    @NWSO
    To Bachelorette #4, you said “We’ve already seen that the likelihood of a woman actually asking a man out is nil, so the ‘if I invited him it’s my treat’ is probably a bunch of bologna for most.”

    I have yet to meet a man who responds in a positive manner to me when I approach unsolicited…or when any woman has made the first move, for that matter. If a guy is not even going to welcome a woman’s advances, how do we get to the point where a woman asks him out, and therefore, pays for the date?

  • Lonias

    And Hannah and Elle are preaching in here!

  • da ThRONe

    Im with Rastaman

    I know too many females that on entertain guys for the free stuff that comes with a date. Which makes any person male or female a prostitute.

  • Rastaman

    @Lonias

    Entitlement: someone’s belief that one is deserving of some particular reward or benefit.

    LMBAO!!

  • Hannah

    @ Rastaman

    While I find the Steve Harvey quote problematic in so many ways, I think his intent was to encourage women to place value on themselves—-something that doesn’t necessarily always happen in our community. While I don’t believe it should be a monetary value, I think you should love yourself enough to be able to ask yourself if the interaction you’re having with someone is worth your time and energy. That goes both ways.

    What I think several of the men in this thread are missing is the idea that courtship should be initiated with the intention of mutual kindness. It really doesn’t matter who pays for dinner, what matters is your intention.

    Being an independent woman means that I come to the table with an equal stake in our interaction. I agree with Elle. It’s about communion and that communion can happen over a dinner that we both pay for or over turkey chili and cornbread at my place.

    @Lonias

    If a man can’t handle me making the first move, that is definitely a sign that we will never board the happy train to Funkytown. I think it’s only fair that if I ask, I pay and I know it’s not a rarity because, in my crew of girls, it’s the standard.

    In my experience, the men I’ve approached don’t mind me making the first move, but when the check comes, they’re uncomfortable if I pay it solo. Also, if you’re trying to cook on the first or second date, they think you’re looking for a husband. I cook because I’m damn good at it and I like to show off. You can’t win to some extent. :)

  • Lonias

    @Rastaman
    I can tell by your response that you were thinking
    “Dis fool!” LOL

    Read my WHOLE response…I am just trying to figure out how to make sure men see ME for the person I am. The problem that I am having is that a “simple” date has become so complicated that men don’t even want to do them. From what I am reading here, no matter who I am/appear to be, if you pay for the date, I am automatically labeled “entitled” or “gold digger”. How does a girl avoid that? I for one know that I don’t deserve such a label!

    I like the “soft touch” Hannah put on her post…
    You/Da Throne read that?
    Are her questions valid?

  • http://www.blackplanet.com/afroboy82 afroboy82

    I’m from Africa and i have live here for four years. In my culture, a man is to be responsible. I don’t have a problem paying for the date. It is part of my resposibility as a man period.

  • http://www.myspace.com/jigeenakjigeen Nana Ataa

    @ Rastaman: Don’t shoot the messenger – those were Steve Harvey’s exact words, not mine. Prostitution is a business – globally. It serves a purpose. And yes – there are plenty of professional and personal types of relationships that are akin to prostitution. I won’t judge it. I don’t feel entitled to anyone’s money, except my salary – that I work really hard for. The only other thing that I feel entitled to is respect, which I gladly give myself and everyone else, regardless of their bank account figures.

    But listen to what we are saying…we don’t want your money! We are breaking our backs to get our own and support ourselves. But when it comes to a union (partnership, co-habitation, marriage or not), unions are not about getting mine at the expense of another – they’re about pooling resources – financial and/or otherwise – for the good of the partnership. We want to know that our partner is physically and financially healthy – or at least recovering. This should work both ways – for men and for women.

    Lonias asked some excellent questions, questions that if answered honestly – would help everyone choose dates that don’t drain your resources. “If a guy is not even going to welcome a woman’s advances, how do we get to the point where a woman asks him out, and therefore, pays for the date?”

  • da ThRONe

    Lets face it you cant wave the “Ms. Independent” flag if you are unwilling to pick up dinner.

    Those dating practices are out dated and are based on a time when ladies where openly treated like second class people.

  • http://nwso.net NWSO

    @Hannah

    I’ve missed your presence on here by the way.

    Anyway, of course I know women that enjoy my company more than my wallet. Not all the Bachelorettes expressed that kind of mentality. It’s just my conversations with many women in real life and on this blog there is the idea that a man pays for everything etc.

    I actually have never had a bad date and have had plenty where we did nothing. I’m definitely not in a position to be wining and dining right now, BUT there have been times where I went out to eat and some drinks and the bill was higher than expected and there was no offer to help with the bill to cover what we SHARED in TOGETHER consuming. Needless to say when that happened it was a while before I went out with that sister again until I could afford to hang with her or she wasn’t short on a non-pay week. (Mind you I don’t have any pay weeks right now:()

  • http://nwso.net NWSO

    @Lonias

    I think you made a good assessment in that men don’t want to be taken advantage of because there are women that may not truly like you or know they don’t but like a free meal. not all but there are some. or if a brother is “getting to know” multiple people that don’t chip in that makes his pockets kinda flat.

    As for the judgment of your character, (good question) but don’t a lot of people put up their “representative” when you first meet them? Like the guarded prim and proper person until their guard finally comes down and you see who they really are—good or bad.

    While there are brothers who are “offended” by a woman offering to pay there are those that aren’t. I can’t even like and be like I never shooed off a woman trying to pay when I took her out (and the bill wasnt that bad LOL), but like I said (I think) in the original post it’s the offer. For me it’s not really about the money only it’s a sign of consideration on a woman’s part that she’s at least aware that hey this guy, no that WE spent a decent portion of his paycheck let me drop 5-10 on this.

    BUT the realities of the recession are that I can’t afford to shoo off an offer on pride. Cause while I may “have it” that night chances are I may not have it the next or for quite a few nights.

  • da ThRONe

    To add to with NWSO said(and Rastaman)

    The ideal of a man should pay tends to lead to females being ungrateful. Because of a sense of entitlement. Anytime a person does something nice for another person there should be some gratitude.

    If you are dating somebody it should be either getting to know them or because you enjoy their company. Either way if you got it you should be holding out just because of your gender.

  • Hannah

    @NWSO

    minus cool points to the chicas who aren’t mindful of the tally when someone else is paying. If you lay out cash, she should at least leave a good tip for the server. It’s just good manners for a woman to pitch in and if she’s tight that week too, she should be upfront about it before you head out. After all, it’s not really about one person showing another person a good time, but you guys taking the time out to make a good time together.

    As for people putting up their “representative”, I think people give you the information you need to work with from the gate. You just have to pay attention. Dating is so weird. I feel like humanity would be better served if we just focused on building real friendships with each other first. That way, if you get romantically involved, a good foundation is already there and it’s not built on pheromone haze and false impressions.

  • Elle

    Mind you: all you guys- especially the dudes – adviced me not to give up on dating or the opposite sex. And now, look at yall. All this bickering over something so freaking irrelevant makes me sick. No wonder I can’t get over my ex.

    And here I though I had issues.

    Pft.

  • Rastaman

    Like I noted before, I have the good fortune that over 80 percent of the women I have dated in my life have been women who have treated me at some point along the way. Many of those women I still consider friends even after our dating. Primarily because they reflected the values i cherished in a woman. Mainly being considerate.

    However, I have also had the misfortune to have experienced the sense of entitlement all too prevalent amongst so many members of the fairer sex. Most men I know would be quite moved if a woman asks them out and even more so if she paid. If he declines your invite it is probably the same reason you have declined an invite in the past, your not his type. Anyone who takes offense at kindness, of someone offering to split a bill or pay, is that really someone with whom you think you can build something with?

    Dating, I have always found to be a lot of fun, it is about getting to know someone on a one to one basis. Not everyone no matter their packaging is for you. You can discover that if you take the time to date them. I do not regret paying for a date with someone, primarily because I do not try to bust the bank in trying to get to know someone. However, I have seen too many men especially get taken advantage of because they sought to impress a woman in whom they were interested.

    Maybe this issue is being blown out of proportion on its face but I do believe it is symbolic of the a sea change in male/female dynamic. I have said for years that most of the men I knew had long ago left behind that old template of the man being able to take care of everything. Men today wants to know what a woman is bringing to the table. 1+0=1, while 1+1=2. Thus we want to know from jump that you are willing to contribute. I think this basic math works for most women also.

    As NWSO notes his pockets are tight right now as are a lot of folks. So show your independence by offering to pay. Whether you have to or not it goes a long way. I know I would appreciate it and I believe so would most fair minded people.

  • DC Man with a plan

    @ Elle, everything I stated didn’t apply to you, I was just stating my general disagreement with your assessment. But for real, U can still be the starter on my team, wink-wink.
    @ Hannah…U make a very compelling and logic filled case for how dating COULD be. And, if you are at least decent lookin and able to present yourself in person, as you appear in written form, YOU are a winner and the type of woman a REAL man would wife up and eagerly head towards ” happy forever land ” within a brief period of time. Brandon shared an interesting analogy–read: men and women will NOT perceive his comments in the same manner (akin to a discussion of racism between blacks and whites) BUT, that does not make men’s perception any less legitimate, so if YOU think you know men, but can’t understand this point–perhaps you don’t know men as well as you think(?) I want to really get this point in: MEN, most of the time, do NOT have a problem paying for dates, but as Da Throne and NWSO stated, there should be an offer to help out (U enjoyed the benefits of food, drink and our company just as we enjoy your time) and there should be some sign of gratitude. What tends to happen is the sense of “entitlement” and “traditional roles” makes many women take paying for a date for granted..which in turn, makes SOME men think payin for dinner is the same as makin a deposit on some azz……Just as women do not want a man to think he’s “buying her body” a man wants a woman to act like she knows OUR time and attention is just as worthwhile and beneficial as hers. You don’t do a man a “favor” by electing to go out with him. But if you think he is “privileged” to be getting your time, you are also likely to “believe” he deserves to pay for the opportunity he is getting, but there is no balance in that type of thinking. My time is worthwhile to you too bcuz I might be the man you spend the rest of your life with. We both gotta recognize benefit or there is an imbalance.

  • http://www.blackplanet.com/lapeaches2003 latona

    If you ask me a independant woman is who i am. I pay my own bills, pay for movies etc. why would i want a man to pay for me. If he pays he expects sex and that is something i do not stand for.

  • Hannah

    @ DC man with a plan

    Is that a veiled request for a picture?

    As for being a winner, truth be told, women like me are more expensive in the long run because what we require from men is that they be a better person, contribute something meaningful to the world at large and develop a fulfilling external and emotional life. Believe me, most people find it easier to drop some dollars than develop the skills to be a better person. A real man to me is someone who can look into the eyes of the woman who loves him and not find himself coming up short in the reflection.

    As for Brandon’s perspective, it’s not difficult to grasp it and call it what it is—misogyny. Gender be damned. When you look at women as objects or commodities instead of human beings, you miss a great deal and do yourself a great disservice. If a woman only exists to serve your need for validation then you’re going about it all wrong.

    Brandon’s analogy starts off on the wrong premise from the gate and quickly tumbles into ridiculousness. I concede that he’s not alone in his perspective or approach, but that doesn’t make it any less appalling. I find it on the level of the women that would make man/dog analogies. Just because it’s prevalent, doesn’t make it right.

    @Rastaman
    As for dating, I still stand by my original assertion. It’s weird. You can have one on one time without it being a “date”. If you take the time to get to know people for being people, you end up gaining in the long run. The men who I call my friends have the common thread of being men who are capable of seeing me as a fellow human being worthy of love and respect as opposed to arm candy or entertainment.

  • Caribeza

    Context is a b**tch.

    Considering the values and mentalities of Steve Harvey’s generation (what was expected from men and women who were courting) and what his Dad probably taught him is probably a good thing to consider when quoting from his book. He probably likes and admires women who came from that type of a background too and that is what he speaks from.

    A lot of families, mine including, have socially and environmentally conditioned their sons and daughters to expect men to show consideration and care by paying for time spent outside, but women show a reciprocal care by not abusing it, and finding other ways to show care.
    Other families maybe different especially single parent families where the motto, sometimes, is more “you pay your own way and let no-one think you owe them anything”

    It really all depends on the 2 people and what they consider to be important and what value they attribute to who pays what. And most important what they are comfortable with.

    However a lot of these assumptions about who pays who and why are made in the context or a caring committed relationship, and quite frankly most of what people in their 20s and 30s go through now are FWB, or “just sexing or chillin” with the facade of “relationship” painted over it so someone won’t get pissed or withhold the goods. People aren’t honest about what they really want or expect from someone they have sex with and the frustration of it all makes people really nit picky with how much money is laid out on the table and what’s “fair” for the exchange of services.

    Guys don’t want to continuously shell out money in the unspoken agreement that they want sex and companionship when for them it’s not permanent arrangement and the women is claiming she is in it for the same thing.

    Girls want guys to shell out money to prove that it is something more than a buddy fuck.

    I’m sure there are other situations, which previous bloggers have already described, that work and where everyone and their money are totally happy.

    However, personally, I think the quarrels and frustrations can usually be attributed to unsaid expectations.

  • Caribeza

    p.s this is a beautiful statement from Hannah. I love it.
    “A real man to me is someone who can look into the eyes of the woman who loves him and not find himself coming up short in the reflection.”

  • CB

    If I ask you out I am paying plain and simple. But I will say that I have had some brothers have a problem with that so if they make a big deal I just cover the tip.

  • single23

    honestly I am a little tired of this topic. but since everyone is so concerned about their pocket books, I can understand the relevance of this topic. Should I be called independent if I expect a man to pay for outings? I don’t see how his paying for a date would subtract from my independence, the capability to take care of myself. We are not talking about him taking me on shopping sprees and paying my bills. But a DATE? For real? You guys don’t even want to pay for a date now?

    I am 23 (soon to be 24 on the 29th), so I know what its like to try to date men who aren’t established yet. Who are still just starting out in life and so therefore expensive dates can be difficult. The one thing that annoys me about dating is that when I am asked out they always ask me what I want to do. Now this is where the problem comes in. I don’t know how their finances look, so if I suggest something that I can afford but they can’t then they feel that I must be high maintenance. I would prefer that he comes up with the itinerary for the evening (with a little wiggle room), so that way it fits into his budget. And it also gives me a feel for how well he pays a attention when I mention things that I like. If we have been conversing for a while, I think coming up with affordable things to do that I would find fun, should be a simple task. And its not always about me either. Sometimes I want to know what he likes to do. Invite me into his world just a little bit. He can’t do that if he always leave the game plan up to me.

    I know the men are wondering why is picking up the tab is so important. honestly, the only thing that’s important about it is your unwillingness to pick it up. If a man is incapable that’s a different matter, but unwilling? How are you going to make me feel special and of value to you, if you don’t? How could I possibly be swayed to let you be in my life? If at the beginning of a courtship and a man expects me to pay my own way, and his most of the time, I would feel that he only has paltry feelings for me and I will loose interest. It’s as simple as that for me.

  • Elle

    *standing ovation for Caribeza*

    I wonder if the men in here will ever realize how backwards they are. Probably not though.

  • Miss McNulty

    This may seem slightly manipulative, but I used to insist on paying on the first date. I didn’t go cheap either.
    You see, this was an investment. Most men…well the type of men I date, don’t usually want a woman paying for their meal. So this puts them in a position to never let me pay again. That was when I was hitting the dating scene hard…

    I’m in a relationship now, and my boyfriend an I take turns paying.

  • Hannah

    @Caribeza

    Word. You get soul claps and pom poms, lady. Eloquently put. Expectation without true communication leads to unnecessary complications.

    @Elle

    co-sign. Sometimes I have to take a moment and find the right words so I just don’t scream on the brothers in frustration. But, seriously, I’m about to check IP records to add some folks to the international DO NOT F**K list. I think it would be a much needed public service. Who is reinforcing this bs? I’m of the firm belief that sleeping with brothers who are backwards is encouraging negative behavior. You shouldn’t get to play in Eden if you’re going to trample the fruit.

  • da ThRONe

    @Elle

    Are you calling me backwards? :(

  • Lonias

    da Throne, I know you weren’t speaking directly to me, (and perhaps I would have chosen a different word than Elle did), but I think the sentiment is shared. You in particular repeated yourself several times during this dialog, and I am sure your intention was emphasis, but it really just comes across as intentionally not trying to see other perspectives on this issue…

    I think what we’re saying is just that as we need to let our guards down, and give guys who approach us the benefit of the doubt, we want the same. Try us and see…most of us are not out to manipulate or take you for all you have. We really just want to spend some time with you, some time only a man and woman can spend together…really!

  • DC Man with a plan

    @ Hannah– naw, sis, it was not a veiled or str8 up request for a pic, just a general comment along side a response to you. I’m sure you’re a beautiful woman inside and out bcuz you express yourself with a lot of confidence. I too, respect and applaud Caribeza’s comments. I can give props when props are due bcuz I strive to see the point of others, even when I generally have a different view….Elle’s last comment, on the other hand, seems like a direct attempt to characterize MEN she doesn’t really know in a negative light just bcuz a view is expressed she doesn’t agree with or is unwilling to understand. And you say WE’RE backwards?

  • boomsilent

    @ Elle- Halo…I certainly hope u can shoot better i see some of these women drive (lipstick? wtf)

    and @ the statistical modeling of a date payment system thinking LOL…I think you are thinking about this too hard. The “game”, as it’s set up, makes no sense so numbers or anything remotely logical goes right out of the window. Women want good guys, but opt for bad ones. Some dudes are scared of women with a brain. Good girls still use guys fro free dates like its a hobby. Everything is ass-backwards.

    But between all of that foolishness, someone actually meets someone that is potentially good for them, that is willing to bypass the game just to get that person. and good things happen.

  • http://www.twitter.com/ohsonattral ohsonattral

    I didn’t read the previous comments so I am not sure if my piece has already been mentioned. But I am going to speak it anyway…I am of advocate of letting a man be a man. Men define themselves by their ability to “provide”, which in this case providing is paying for the first date. It depends on how a woman defines independence. For me it’s working to take care of my basic needs i.e. food, clothing and shelter without assistance from anyone. I don’t feel that allowing a man to pay first makes me any less independent as I am not technically depending on him for take care of me or my basic needs. It’s a “date”. If he doesn’t pay I will still eat. On the flip side I have offered to pay for dates and had men tell me “no” they got this. That is their way of showing me that they are capable of providing. For the record I have paid for dates and have gone dutch.

  • Hannah

    @DC

    I think Elle heard some of the brothers’ opinions and called it like she saw it. Truth be told, some of it is backwards. Elle has held her own for quite a bit in this forum and does on a consistent basis what I’m way too tired to do. She eloquently engages ya’ll and demonstrates that if you’re willing to make a shift in your behavior and thinking that good things will come to you in spades.

    What it seems she has said and continues to say is that it’s all about what you make yourself available for. She doesn’t have to characterize any of you in a negative light because some of the men here do that all by themselves.

  • DC Man with a plan

    lol…This is entertaining……Ok, ery’one knows Brandon’s comments were partially tongue-in cheek, so for those who take it verbatim, and then try to rationalize a conclusion that sounds logical–you’re off the mark from the word GO. Secondly…..for ALL the women who say they’re tired of this topic, who wanna call the men who have responded this or that…How come you don’t just go to the next blog subject? Why you gotta STOP here and waste your time on a subject you don’t want to DISCUSS, as much as air your own tirade against? And if you think you’re a REAL woman…ask the dude you’re dating, bangin, whateva, HIS opinion on this subject…See how much truth you can get outta your own relationship partner…Some of y’all know from the break you’re gonna be lied to….other’s know you got a dude who will try to figure out what you wanna hear–so he can serve it up to you. It’ll be RARE for any of you to get a real honest discussion. And who can blame them; look at how you act up in here–and WE don’t even know one another…..smdh……

  • DC Man with a plan

    I have YET to read any one of you ladies say: I spoke to the man I’m with about this TODAY…or he read this blog and we discussed it and he said:…x….y….z…naw, y’all full of opinion but are NOT tryin to find answers where you lay your head. THAT’s funny. Holla back when your MAN replies…

  • sylkiifeather

    @Rastaman…ok what does my age have to do with anything?? it was a topic. age has nothing to do with my OPINION. there is dating in EVERY age group, so what is the issue with my age keep being brought up on this site. this issue occurs in every age group, even younger ones. when i said “rules”…i meant “roles” that SOCIETY places on the different genders. not “rules” that are written down in some “rule book”

    @DC Man with a plan……personally, me and my man have had a couple of discussions about this topic, particularly when we first started out. my first comment about how that goes down when im in a relationship is how it works for us. its whoever has the most money at the time, alot of times that being ME. or we go 50/50. because we care about each other, the money thing is not that big of a deal now. but when we were dating, it was kind of an unspoken rule between us that we would pay in turns.

    personally, traditional dates (dinner/movie) is a waste of time, especially if its the first date. to me, dinner is a little too formal. and how are you supposed to get to know somebody during a movie? (lol). i prefer to do something more informal/personal. something where i can get to know that person’s personality alot more.

  • Elle

    I will generalize and say everybody on this planet wishes to meet somebody they can spend their life/significant amount of it with.

    Now, as we all know, nothing of value in this world comes for free – and by free I am not referring to the monetary aspect of the word. Good things require time, effort, energy, hard work, patience and multiple other “investments” (again, not monetary, although sometimes money is needed).

    In this dating game, all you need to do is let your guard down, give somebody the benefit of the doubt, spend a little TIME (read: not money) and make an honest effort to get to know a person. Maybe, just maybe you will get to the point where both of you will have to put your heart on the line as well and just go ahead and commit to each other. At that point, money usually gets pooled one way or the other anyways. So the “issue” of who pays for dinner is not relevant anymore. Before this point however, truck loads of money are not required either if both parties are creative enough to spend quality doing things that cost nothing at all or close to nothing. So where exactly does money come into all of this? I do not get it. I really don’t. At this very second I could up with 30 things 2 people can do that cost nothing at all or a maximum amount of probably 10 bucks for 2 people. If anyone’s pockets are so tight that $10 is still too much, then I am sorry, that person needs to work on his/her life first before thinking about dating.

    @ThRONe
    Actually, no I am not calling YOU backwards because everything you have ever stated in any of the threads fits together perfectly.

    However, I recall some of the guys in here feeling all good about it when the lady pays for the movie yet hands them the movie tickets or when she gives him HER money so HE can hand it to the waiter. Better yet, when she leaves it up to him to decide what they do on their date. So yea, all that sounds pretty backwards to me.

  • DC Man With a Plan

    Yo, Elle, baby. You make me smile, so I can definitely get with you…….AND I’m payin for ery’thing…hair, nails, U need it, lets get ‘er done, even if you don’t want it like that………..

  • Elle

    LoL… DC, why do I feel like I’m making you laugh (about me) rather than smile?

    No need to come out of pocket for hair, nails or any other BS I can do myself. However, I’m always up for a walk in the park while having a green tea latte.
    :)

  • http://www.brandonsaintrandy.wordpress.com Brandon St. Randy

    @Hannah:

    You’re being ridiculous.

    “As for Brandon’s perspective, it’s not difficult to grasp it and call it what it is—misogyny. Gender be damned. When you look at women as objects or commodities instead of human beings, you miss a great deal and do yourself a great disservice. If a woman only exists to serve your need for validation then you’re going about it all wrong.”

    You took what was a completely simplified and humorous analogy (which I discredited at the end) and made up your own narrative about patriarchy. In fact, I made men out pretty badly as undifferentiated bidders while assigning value to women. You could actually use the exact same auction theory in reverse in respect to how men choose women, and it would work the same way.

    “Sometimes I have to take a moment and find the right words so I just don’t scream on the brothers in frustration. But, seriously, I’m about to check IP records to add some folks to the international DO NOT F**K list. I think it would be a much needed public service.”

    Which suggests that for an “independent woman”, you’re pretty bitter and you got a whole lot of time on your hands to sit around hating and trying to put your nose in other people’s business. Good luck with compiling that whole international DNF list. I’ll be busy taking the amazing woman I’m dating out to dinner, opening the door for her, picking up the check, and taking her home to roger her properly. While you’re sitting at home compiling IP addresses.

    “You T-paining too much.”

  • Hannah

    @DC
    Just because something was stated in jest doesn’t make it any less offensive. It may have been a joke, but it was off from the gate.

    It’s interesting that a man’s opinion is now required to validate a woman’s. Since you asked, here’s a direct quote from the man in my life:

    ” People still think this way? That’s a shame.”

    @ Brandon

    It’s not a good joke or a good analogy. Not at all well executed and still misogynist. I wouldn’t flip it and use it for women to men because it’s disrespectful. You put it out there, you can’t be salty when people respond in an open debate.

    As for the IDNF list, that, my dear, was a joke.
    As is the idea that I would ever have time on my hands.

  • http://www.brandonsaintrandy.wordpress.com Brandon St. Randy

    @Hannah. Salty? You were the one who took sooooooo much offense. And frankly, besides calling it misogynist or throwing the word patriarchy around, you haven’t poked a single hole in a theory that was concocted on the fly while I was writing it. As for the comparing women to commodities, this was directly a comparison between things that are valued highly and easily replaceable. Perhaps that went over your head. So, where’s the disrespect? And no, actually, I didn’t ask what the man in your life thought. Nor do I give his opinion any more weight than yours because he’s a guy. Again, this is you coming up with your own narrative about me being a misogynist, but, yeah, go ahead, and look back, and find where I said A man’s opinion is required to validate a woman’s. Katt Williams voice, I’ll wait. And yeah, you made the IDNF joke twice. And since there’s a little bit of truth in every joke, I gotta say, something smells a little, um, bitter, in here.

  • DC Man With a Plan

    Yo, Hannah…I come in peace! lol…….Thanks for the word from your man.. I’ll count his vote, but I think it’s gonna be 50/50 for and against. Let’s call it a tie and continue to do what works for the persons involved.
    @ Elle: I am definitely NOT laughing at you. It was a genuine smile…

  • da ThRONe

    @Hannah

    “Just because something was stated in jest doesn’t make it any less offensive. It may have been a joke, but it was off from the gate.”

    I think making lite of something does take alot of offense out of things. Why get offened over a meaningless joke? I have always felt some pity for people who take everything so serious.

  • Elle

    Oh, ok DC .. well then :)

  • free

    This is enough–@Dc

    there are many games males play—they want women to show appreciation by ending up in their bed——–that is what this is all about——

  • da ThRONe

    @free

    So let me get this striaght. Women make men pay for date because men want sex!

    Isnt that prostitution on a barter system?

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