Who’d Date an Angry [Black] Woman? (Only the Lonely)

Awww man....this lady's belief system is so screwed up. Maybe she doesnt understand that you can only elicit from others from your point of attraction. If she believes that there are no good men out there, just WHAT does she expect to find?!?! She is VIBRATING bitchiness and therefore ATTRACTING dogs....it's that simple.

You want a GOOD man sister?

Two words:

GET HAPPY!!!!

Wow, sounds like me a few days ago but regarding women... "They are all teasers and like to toy with mens' emotions, petty and vengeful, cold and insensitive when it suits their purpose" etc etc etc.
Point is she's right, and so am I, but when she falls in love and starts to praise her man, she'll be right too. its all a matter of perspective, and she's in a dark spot right now. Once she climbs out she'll see the good side of things.
Or she could just try to find a nice geek to marry.
Honestly, like there are no nice men around... Just deign to look at the ones no one notices, the hidden husband material.
No guy just wants empty sex forever... At least, deep down, everyone wants a good companion.

@NWSO

Just asking out of curiosity. You said you didn't know whether this woman is Black or not but you titled this post "Who'd Date an Angry [Black] Woman?" Why assume or say "for the sake of argument" that's she's Black?

Does the tone of her letter make you feel that way - like does it make you feel like only a Black woman could have written this?

I'm just wondering....

@ NWSO I understand where you're coming from as far as the title. But I do feel like choosing "angry black woman " perpetuates the stereotype that most black women are angry. I myself am really getting upset with the media's portrayal of black women as lonely desperate unattractive angry women. This women very well may have been latina or white. It seems to me that Black women are really getting a negative light shun upon them recently and the titling of this post bothered me also. I get what your saying about the chip on the shoulder of any woman but I do have to admit i felt some kind of way reading the title because angry women come in other shades too.

@ NWSO. Thanks. I took it as you intended it.

I guess I'm a little sensitive because I've had several "angry black woman" conversations with my male friends over the last few weeks. I certainly would not classify myself as such and neither would my male friends (thank goodness) but after those discussions, I'm realizing that maybe a lot of my sisters do have....issues.

Not that I hold myself apart from them - no one is issue free. I've had my share of assholes (and one crushing breakup) but I really try to judge each man and experience on its own.

I'm a firm believer that people can only do what you allow them to do. Sounds cliche but its true! I know what I want and if a man steps to me offering less than that, I just accept that our relationship goals are different. If I want to start and maintain a relationship that leads to marriage but a dude just wants to fuck for a couple of months, I'm not gonna waste my time or his.

And trust - men ALWAYS let you know what their intent is for you. They may not say the words but if you pay attention, its obvious.

I reconnected with a friend a while back. He has a girl but he wanted to "spend some time with me". He said that if we did, he felt that feelings would develop and he would probably leave his girl. Translation: I'm not leaving my girl but I want to fuck you for as long as I can until you figure that out.

Now if my self-esteem was low or I was unsure of myself and what I want, I would have fallen for that and I would have left that situation bitter and blaming him. And worse, I would have probably repeated that scenario over and over again. I know this because I've BEEN that chick before. I'm not her anymore because I took the time to really examine myself - like reallly. I know what's fucked up about me and what's great about me and I just try everyday to accept that. Doing this helps me accept it in others as well. That doesn't mean I have to accept them in my life. It just means that I'm clear on who I am so I can figure out who/what I want in my life.

You gotta get straight with yourself first. And it is hard. For real.....but its worth it. When you stop feeding yourself the bullshit, its easier to spot it when it comes from other people.

I am with everyone who said it is her.

I am sorry, if all you attract are horny a-holes you might want to look at yourself and see which pattern you are following to continuously meet these guys.

We all get our heart broken, sometimes several times in our lives. But not everyone ends up being bitter like her. Again, this coping mechanism is all on her as well.

There are tons of great men and women out there. The only thing people tend to forget is that not every good man is good for everyone. I would claim to be a good woman myself but at the same rate I know I am not good for each and every man on the face of the earth. It takes more than "being good".

As far as sex goes, come on now. All men want sex. And? All women want sex as well. What's the big deal? I have rarely ran into men who were only after sex. Those times I did it was so easy to pick up on that no damage was done. So why get frustrated and bitter? I can only be hurt if I am emotionally involved but until I know who I am dealing with there won't be emotional involvement. At least that's how it works for me. Maybe she needs to work on her people judgement to weed through men with more ease and intuition. That way she wouldn't waste time, energy and emotions on the wrong ones.

Have you ever been frustrated with the lack of viable dating prospects out there?
- Um, sure. There are not a lot of guys who tickle my fancy. Mainly I am very picky and have only a limited target group. But even then I always managed to find good guys - with flaws like everyone else - but good guys nonetheless.

Does your bad luck at love make you bitter or do you learn from each experience and move on?
- If I was able to learn something from a relationship I am grateful and move on with ease. Up until recently that was always the case. I was thankful for the experiences despite pain it may have caused. But it was "all gooood". The last relationship ended with nothing to be learned though and that made me bitter to a degree. I am not going to lie. It was simply a very senseless situation that didn't need to end up this way. But oh well. There is nothing I can do.

Ladies, do you really believe that relationship books/blogs offer any useful advice?
- Um, sometimes, sometimes not. Or should I say in parts. All that's being said/written should be taken with a grain of salt because it simply can't apply to every person and every scenario.

Would you consider yourself “angry” or do you know any women that are?
- Maybe I am delusional but I wouldn't categorize myself as angry. Realistic and somewhat less emotionally available - yes. Angry and manhating - no.

I agree with many of the comments, that she needs to take time for a period of self-examination. I am sure in time she will recognize her missteps and not repeat them.

I was having a hard time dating after coming out of a long marriage. My cousin and I were having a conversation about my attempts to find a good man. He asked what me what grocery store I was shopping at? He said if you are shopping at Krogers and Food Lion maybe you should try Safeway or Albertson's instead. His analogy makes a lot of sense. If she is attracting men that aren't what she is looking for, go back and examine how she met these guys. Then, she should ask herself were what there signs in the begininnng that should have told her not to get deeply involved with those men. When she is able to recognize what separates a good man from the rest, then she can come to terms with herself, heal and move into a relationship that gives her what she is looking for.

@ NWSO - I couldn't get through the post. Personally I stay away from ANYONE in my life who exhibits this type of attitude. Negativity breeds negativity. So my comments may be a little off base in responding to her.

From a personal perspective, angry women (of any race) deal with men (and everyone else) crapping on them because that is all the woman is good for. If all you do is bitch, complain, nag, and face everything with hostility, why would anyone want to spend time with you outside of the wham bam thank you mam? And no decent man will even want that.

There is not a women over the age of 25 who has not been hurt - deeply. Those of us who want to live content/happy lives pick ourselves up and keep going. There are A LOT of decent brothas out there, but damn, you got to bring something to the table other than a nasty attitude and a bitchy mood for a man to want to sit with you and enjoy a meal.

Its not about the man at this point, you have to let it all go for your own sanity. You do NOT want to be a bitter women, feeding a bunch of cats, while screaming at kids get off your lawn and fantasizing about the UPS man. JMO

What did you think of this woman’s comment? Did she come off angry to you or do you think I misinterpreted her sentiments?

there is no way to misinterpret her comment. this woman doesn't just sound angry- this woman is enraged. whew. must be exhausting. po' thang. she probably already had self-worth issues. thirsty women make poor choices and ignore warning signs of impending doom. then they act all blind-sided. silliness. when you need to assert your authority like she seems to and have such control, it's a complete lack of faith in a man being able to love you of his own free will. that's terribly sad.

Do you think it’s fair to judge all men (or women) based on the actions of others?

it's smart and necessary to be aware and not ignore warning signs. people NEVER just pop up crazy. they were giving you signs all along that you ignore for whatever reasons (fear of loneliness, attraction, sex, etc.). judging all men based on actions of others = no. learning what behavior you can accept and what is unacceptable and dismissing those with behavior falling into the unacceptable = good look and not wasting your time so you don't end up a bitter, angry woman.

Have you ever been frustrated with the lack of viable dating prospects out there? Ladies, do you really believe that relationship books/blogs offer any useful advice?

no, but i'm young (24). dating when you're older is probably legitimately more difficult. i think younger women are finding problems dating because they're reading too many of these relationship books and blogs. everyone's looking for that magic list of rules to make a perfect dating experience and that definitely doesn't exist. it's the proverbial search for the fountain of youth which breeds disappointment because it doesn't exist. these blogs and books essentially instruct women to shift their wants and needs in dating to men's ideal. THIS creates bitter women because these women EXPECT a prize for this shift and when that prize isn't delivered- PROBLEMS! there's nothing wrong with dating for you and your enjoyment. the whole point is to find someone on your wavelength instead of pretending to enjoy someone else's- that breeds resentment and entitlement issues. if a woman has accommodated you and changed, the minute things get serious, she's going to expect everything. you assume it's sudden, but she feels like she's been making concessions all along so she's entitled to what she wants NOW.

Does your bad luck at love make you bitter or do you learn from each experience and move on?

i've been pretty lucky, so i can't speak to learning from bad luck. i've always been treated well and genuinely felt cherished, and i don't think that it was all luck- i played a part. i think my honesty and ability to accept what people tell me at face value has helped me avoid more bad luck and heart break. i don't invest myself into situations that i know from jump aren't what i want, pretending that i'm okay with it or hoping for a happy ending <-- this creates bitter women when the happy ending doesn't come as expected.

Would you consider yourself “angry” or do you know any women that are?

no; however, we are still young and my friends and i are all in nonprofit work and research which attracts hopeful people so we may not be a representative group.

i don't think labeling these women angry and branding them with a scarlet A is the answer. it makes them angrier, they feel more rejected which supports the cycle. i don't know what the answer is. the original commenter is clearly looking for someone to prove her wrong. if she had truly given up, the rage would have died out. she wants a hero, but who's going to break through the rage to tell her that he ain't coming cause she crazy? i still have hope that she'll get her Tyler Perry ending eventually.

Ooooh. I've been there. There was a time when I could have written that note, and worse. When I realized just how hardcore I was becoming, I stepped back and decided to be by myself for awhile. It's all about attitude, and this young lady really needs some time to examine herself and what brought her to this place. That's what I had to do, and I'm glad I did. I'm not blaming her at all -- in fact, I empathize to a rather disturbing degree -- but life's too short to be that freaking bitter. Let it go.

Hmm... There are still good black men out there. I'm married to one... And just because he tells you he doesn't want to get married that doesn't mean it's true... It could just be YOU that he doesn't want to marry. My cousin is going through that now. She dated a guy for 3 yrs and he always said he never wanted to get married but a year after their break up, guess what, he's married. I don't believe that there's someone for everyone though. Some people are just destined to to alone, I think. But in order to even have the chance at finding that happily ever after you have to be OPEN to it, and clearly she isn't.

this woman doesn't just sound angry- she sounds enraged. that must be exhausting... and terribly sad. in order for her to have had this many bad relationships, she most likely already had issues before she even started dating. thirsty women make poor decisions and ignore warning signs that the man she's dealing with isn't right. no one randomly pops up crazy- there WERE warning signs that were ignored or missed. i don't even think it's about her attracting the wrong men strictly because of her negativity. i think most women attract undesirable men but we're aware enough to dismiss the undesirables and not waste our time. if she doesn't and builds up this cadre of negative experiences, that's a reflection of her choices, not necessarily an indictment on her whole being but she needs to take responsibility for that. a whole shit load of bad relationships doesn't just happen to you- you have to participate in the fuckery to build such a negative portfolio of relationships.

definitely don't think advice from relationship books or blogs would be helpful to her because she has her mind made up and isn't open to hearing anything else. it would be a waste of time for anyone to bother trying (i still secretly hopes someone does and there's a miracle). right now, i don't think branding her with a scarlet letter A as an angry woman is the answer. it'll only intensify her feelings of rejection and invalidation. she's looking for someone to prove her wrong. if she had truly given up on men, the rage would have died out as well.

Wow. She is really angry. I think ultimately though, she's really angry at herself. She is angry at herself for trying to please these men, and hoping that sex would "change" them. She has been deeply hurt, this is apparent, but any potential mate is going to be scared off by the anger and the wall she has put up. I agree with Rastaman, "when you're in a f-ed up place, you attract f-ed up people. It really is about your energy. Life isn't like a Tylet Perry movie where you can be enraged and bitter, and a gorgeous man with the patience of a saint and the body of an olympian will fall for you and help you overcome your anger. You have to overcome the anger and self-hatred FIRST. Then and only then can you find someone to love. I wish her luck. I'm hoping she gets counseling.

Two words you should never use on a first (second, third, fourth, etc.) date with a man. Commitment & Marriage. I suspect that this is an early topic of conversation with this "angry" young lady. And if so, "Run brother, Run!" Let me apologize for the brothers who didn't make it clear to you that they're not ready for that step in the lives. And instead chose to "ride it out" so that they could get some regular tang on a regular basis and bounce out the back door at the earliest opportunity. 

It comes down to this, women often think that they choose the man they're going marry, when in actuality, it's the other way. Honestly speaking, a dude would have to be a super super duper duper asshole/jerk to ask a girl to marry him and she say no. And even if he was all of that and thensome, it would still be hard for her to resist. This truly amazes me.

The women who win (In other words, defeated their man into submission) are the ones that stay silent and act like they aren't even interested in marriage. Or at least wait for a year or two before even bringing it up as a topic. Men tend to find that commendable (LOL) and end up rewarding. I repeat, rewarding the lady with her ultimate prize that shes wanted since her parents gave her genetic code. 

Remember, I said HER prize. LOL. Not ours. Marriage is death to us. We watch our fathers, uncles, cousins, friends get married and... Poof!!! Most of their dreams, big or small just vanishes into thin air. Are we selfish? Maybe. But I think it has more to do with what we think of ourselves and where we thought we wanted and would be. For us, we'd like to be the best we can be as a man. Competing with ourselves everyday. Moving to the next level. I know what you're thinking, why can't you do those things while you're married or at least committed to the one you love? Simply put. Women, but especially those today (as strong and as independant they are) are more selfish and unrealistic as far as what their expectations are from a man. And those expectations tend to conflict with dreams. Now obviously these aren't hard and fast rules but genrally speaking women today are just unreasonable. There are men who can spot this in a woman and assuming that what I suspect about the "angry" young lady is true. Why in heavens name would anyone want to marry into that? It's bad enough men think of themselves as being half-full, let alone be married or in a relationship with someone who thinks that men are half-empty. 

Before you lay that bear trap down. Ask youself, what's your reason for wanting to get married? And why is it important to you? Is it out of some obligation as a woman to complete that chapter in your life? Do you want some dude to take care of you? Or do you want to be married for the sake of being able to say, "I'm married"? 

Cause you know what? Marriage isn't easy. It actually sucks. There's no such thing as happiness in a marriage. At least for a man because women make that impossible. 

I'll have to continue this later. I'm at work. 

Do I detect an angry man in the room?

Sheesh, Harold you might wanna hook up with the angry woman and see how much you guys have in common.

Wow @ Harold, you're almost as negative as the woman who wrote the angry "f.. all men" thing.

"Marriage is death to us. We watch our fathers, uncles, cousins, friends get married and… Poof!!! Most of their dreams, big or small just vanishes into thin air. Are we selfish?" ...... There’s no such thing as happiness in a marriage.
--Most of my family who are married are happy and have been for decades, most good wives support their husband's dreams, because most good men who settle down dream of ways to do the best for their family.

I grant you there are a lot of bitter wives and husbands out there but I think those people had unreal expectations and a lack of true communication, just like I suspect Angry Woman has. Marriage/ a relationship isn't easy and definitely there are bad times but there are a lot of happily married men and women who would never go back to their single life if they had a choice. That also negates the statement that there are "no good men".

These comments as well as the original A?W poster make me think that you had no happy examples of marriage growing up, no good friends of the opposite sex, no great relationships with your parent of the opposite sex. .... And that's really sad. My heart hurts for anyone in those positions. Rastaman said something many many blogs ago about feeling better dating women who had great relationships with their Dads/older male figure and he is right.

The "no good man" comments and the "marriage is death" thing makes me think that "Angry Woman" has no father or brothers, or uncles, or any male friends who she likes and respects. She seems to take some of the common characteristics of healthy, sexual, red-blooded males as a personal attack on her.

Yes there are dogs and a lot of bitches too out there whose sole purpose is to use, change, and degrade, but they're probably coming from the same sort of warped environment that produced "Angry Woman" and Harold. But taking the time to really evaluate the words and actions of the people you meet, and calmly but firmly refusing to be a doormat or a cheap motel bed weeds out a lot of the bad seeds.

It beats me when I see women see a guy they think is an ok prospect as long as he eventually changes this or he changes that, and go full speed ahead with their imagined fairytale relationship, not realizing the guy has emotionally checked out a long time ago... The poster who said the perfect match is finding someone who accepts and loves you flaws and all and vice versa was on point.

I feel sorry for Angry Woman and any body like her, male or female... but sooner or later, regardless of your forming environment, victims have to make a conscious decision to not be victims. You definitely get what you put out.

I had a hard time dating previously generally because I wouldn't make the first step to actually go out with anyone . But now I've decided to go and put myself out there and I'm meeting a good amount of really great guys. Partially because I try and put out really positive energy, and unsurprisingly I get a whole bunch of positive feedback.

Women sometimes do things, sex included, not because they personally want to do them, but because they think doing it will keep a guy from going. If you have to do things you don't like doing to keep a man... he isn't really yours in the first place.

if you do things that you didn't really want to do, you can only blame yourself for doing it. Guys take what you give them. I think a lot of Angry ? Women are angry not at men but at themselves, but they need to put the blame on some one else to feel better about themselves... because they can't deal with the fact that they are not all that!

ROTFL - I'm still in tears over “I cringed and my penis shriveled up and hid behind my balls” classic - I'm going to have to slang and incorporate that somehow in conversation ....too funny *wiping away tears*.

Now in all seriousness, I understand dropping the V or C (virgin/ celibate) bomb until marriage, may make it harder to meet someone in this day and age. Many guys may not want to wait, In addition to running across double D’s (disrespectful douche bags). I don't think she should feel this angry unless real damage has been done and the only way that could have happened is - If she stuck around and allowed someone to mistreat her under the misguided guise of love. If that’s the case, she has to take responsibility for her participation in these events as well.

If the anger stems from just from being rejected due to personal preferences regarding sex, she may want to take it down. I think she should understand that she’s made a choice to share herself with her future husband. If it were that easy to find applicants for that position a lot of women would already be married. I’d take solace in the fact that it isn’t easy for anyone. She should be glad that true character is being revealed so that doors can close which will allow others to open.

Anslem/ NWSO is absolutely right negativity isn’t flirty, sexy, smiley or cute, holding on to anger can only hold the individual back. If she were mistreated in the past; find the error in her way, learn the lesson, apply it in the future and move on. I’d lick my wounds, look at the scar, remember the lesson, and jump back in. Dating to me is sooo much fun. Even bad dates produce great stories and an experience to learn about oneself or city.

I understand where she is coming from. This woman could be a genuinely nice person, and it is not in her nature to be nasty, but she ran into a couple of dirty dudes that pissed her off.

There are alot of guys out there that are in relationships or married and just want to see if they still have "IT" so they lead women on, and then the world ends up with alot of pissed off women.

I have two cell phones a prepaid that I give to guys I meet and a Sprint. If I think the dude is worth the time they may go from pre-paid to Sprint.

If I think the dude is a stupid jackazz I never have to answer his calls because he's on prepaid, and I barely turn it on.That somewhat keeps the BS to a minimum.

The blogger is right that for women being attractive is not enough, being cool, being smart, being fun is not enough. Giving your all is not enough. The writer is angry and many other women (Black or not) are angry too. She has laid out many reasons why, which I completely understand. In response to this, its insinuated that she should step her game up because her attitude isn't cute or sexy? Are we serious here?

It's not hard to empathize...just think about if ALMOST EVERY women you ever dated strung you along about wanting to be serious (either verbally or through actions), cheated on you, wouldn’t let you go when you tried to leave a bad situation. You would have given up on woman after the 1st offense...the 1st broken heart. Women keep trying and forgiving and trying again but are still told that we give up on men too easily. And, then we are bombarded with more and more and more advice about what we aren't doing right. A lot of Ms. Rights ARE single!!!

I agree with the writer...I too am fine being single because I am tired of the games, lies, deceit, psychological issues, baggage, hate, and immaturity that I have allowed a couple men to bring my life in the past. I'm young and haven't had much experience but I’ve had enough to know that single (in DC..lol) is more drama-free. Me stating this and the reasons why is keeping it real...NOT being angry.

Sex IS becoming almost expected a few dates in. When dating a guy, I’m not going to frustrate myself by repeating reasons why I don't want to have sex (yet) and I won't be pushing his hands off of me every 5 seconds. It's is a battle that I will no longer fight--I'm tired, so, if a guy suggests that that's all he wants (by what he does or says), I'll just cut things off. Is this me generalizing men? Plus, other reasons to be on the single tip are that: men have so many options; some just aren't ready to settle down but also don't want to lose you. Then, some men have more serious issues (manipulators, serial cheaters, pathological liars)---NOT ALL, SOME!

I have not given up on all men but I'm in chill mode. I'm young, fun, smart, attractive, & loyal but there are a million other women that meet this criteria....sooooo, the man wants ME is really going to have to show me he's serious and until that happens, I'm not angry, but all goody and happy with being single.

What women fail to understand and some men too is that we have all been sold a "bill of goods" about what it really takes to make relationhips succesful.

The 50 year happily married couple is an exception not a rule. Ask the majority of men and women married for that long, my parents included, and they will tell you what it takes and how its changed. We need to stop thinking that marriages and relationships are somehow endurance contest and those that last the longest win a prize.

I am a fairly intelligent man, I think and its taken me a long time to figure out who I am and what I need in a woman. Note I did not say what I want!!

People get angry and frustrated whenever they don't get what they expect or think they deserve. But it always go back to that age old saying: "Who says life is fair?"

You know what a succesful relationship is in these modern times: One where when it ends you are better for it than to have never experienced it. These zero sum game approach to life that so many folks carry around is one of the prime reason why life is such hell for them. They have these grand expectations for everything and everyone they encounter and when it does not work out, everyone else is so much shit. Grow teh fuck up!!

Please don't encourage her to become a lesbian, I got a few lsapphic sisters and from what they tell me they deal with enough already. They already get too many abuse victims and therapy candidates who choose the lifestyle not because the like women but because they dislike men. The result is a fucked up lesbian making another woman's life miserable.

As to "fuckery" anyone familiar with the jamaican linguistic will tell you thats probably been in the lexiconlonger than anyone on this board been alive. Jamaicans have more cuss words/terms than any other english dialect. Trust.

PPl keeping saying it's all about your attitude I personally know tons of great woman w/great attitudes who meet horny assholes who don't treat them right. Some ppl are who they are no matter who they meet. I think the whole thing to keep in mind while dating is being able to identify a person's intentions for you. I honestly believe every man and woman has the potential to be good to the person they really want to be with. If you are not that person then you will get the generic version of them. I think we all just need to pay attention to what a person really wants with you and if it's not the same thing that you want then #on2thenext. That's how I maneuver through the dating game and it certainly keeps me from a lot of unnecessary drama and pain. I thinks it's best to let a person know what you are look for upfront and take it from there.

Although I too was taken aback by the angry "black", I don't know if she's black but it's a term and I'm going to use it too, NWSO. But I do see where you're coming from now. Secondly, I am guessing this woman is young. Because as you get older, you get wiser and less angry at the world for all the fairy tale expectations you had that have not been fulfilled. You also understand everyone is different and these generalizations no longer exist in your mind or communications. I hope she gets there soon because as everyone else said- like attracts like. Positive energy and thoughts are key for success in everything we do. And her searching for a relationship, even attempting one in her current mind-state just will not work.

I will say this. I am a black woman and I keep it real! I read the above letter and I can see this woman has been hurt so bad and has allowed that hurt to dictate her life when it comes to men. That is the unfortunate part about it. I used to feel this way, until I decided to take responsibility for the choices I made and make when it comes to choosing a suitable man for me. People only do to you what you allow them to do. Life is too short to sulk in anger, hurt and blame. I will say this..............our black men and black women need to stop putting each other down. We treat each other so terrible these days and on top of it, we brag about it in such a way that I just can't understand. What is wrong with this picture? We need to get back to the basics and start loving ourselves and each other better.

Another angry Black woman on the chopping block again? Since there is quite a bit of regular coverage of the angry Black woman in all forums, I wonder where I can find just as much coverage about the treasures of a woman of African descent. And double the points if it is a forum of any type with a man of African descent at the helm. Any suggestions or is that truely a needle in the haystack?

She is a silly chick & any other woman that puts THIS much emphasis on a rellationship has MAJOR issues! Being in a relationship is a CHOICE not a NECESSITY so get good with yourself & GOD & all will fall into place.

Baby boo obviously is looking for something that can not be found in a man. She is looking for a person to blame for her unhappiness & that person is HER.

To all women who believe that a man is the cause for all of her anger or disgust has another thing coming. I could bet that she is a born again virgin thinkiing that reforming her whoreish ways from is going to make her a more viable candidate for marrige.. NO MA'AM!

Men can spot a whore from miles away & will approach accordingly.

Can't love a person if you don't love yourself. Can't be happy with another person if you are not happy with yourself.

All this is NOT rocket science! No need to read books about the obvious.

Othaniel- I LOVE your breakdown!

LOL @ Caribeza. I was mostly kiddin' there, Caribeza. Just a demo of the other extreme to show that men actually do think about marriage and commitment, but are usually careful on as to whom they surrender their risky goals and their hearts too. Most of what you said is absolutely true. I'm actually living proof of that. I happen to have a very supportive wife(in most cases) that ive been married to for 6 years this June and have been together for 14 years. 2 beautiful children.

But I will say this. Marriage shelves the spontaneous risk you wouldve taking as a single man. That the only gripe I'd have to admitt. I'm not sure if I explained this in the previous note, because I was at work. Actually still at work. But maybe I should have made it a little clearer when I said, there's no such thing as happiness in a marriage. You can be content but happiness is a process just like profection. I'm happy when I come home from work and see the little lady feeding the kids. And or the little ones running towards me cause they're so happy to see me. But I'm not happy when as soon as I put one foot in the door, youve got a task waiting for me. I just came from cotdamn work for crying out loud. And I hate it when I hear this sentence. "We need to talk." and then it ends up being something of not very much importance. But you thought it was enough to pause or turn off the tv to talk about it. And I especially hate it when it's 2:30am. LOL.

I renovate, fix, cook, clean, laundry, do the market, take care of the kids when you're at work or go out, provide you several properties to secure the families future, handle my business in the bedroom. And the only thing you can do is think about is something that remains undone. All I need when I get home is a clean, organized home and a nap. Please let me take my shoes off!

@ Harold - LOL, Guess women and men aren't that different after all.

I love Othaniels statement and thoughts on marriage. You hit the nail on the head, dude. The first year is the toughest year on a marriage because thats when you realize the loss in earning potential. And you bleed money like crazy that year. But it gets better.

Wow! As I read this statement I was wondering about what this woman went through to cause her to be so angry. There was a time in my life when I didn't have the most positive thoughts about men but they weren't as extreme as this woman's. After getting tired of dating the same type of people I had to do some self reflection and change my ways. Over the past summer, I had the opportunity to meet different people and go on dates. After that experience I have come to the conclusion that each man is different and should be treated that way. I always believe I'm in control of what happens when I am on a date and I will be treated accordingly. People can only do what you allow them to do. If you don't want to have inappropriate conversations shut them down right away and let them know you don't appreciate that.

lol @Dd man....don't know how that happened....Whew. I'm glad you cleared your position up, Harold, bcuz I was bout to smack that azz too--just bcuz I'ma equal opportunity attacker of stupid soundn shyt! lol....Your words were in jest to make a point--cool. @Malia, you're not happy about the title, stereo-types, blah,blah, blah. Geez, is anyone forcing you to visit this blog? Are you unwilling to have an exchange of views and attitudes that doesn't necessarily revolve around what you think and feel is "right?" NWSO is fair in that he throws out some blog titles and subjects that do not make MEN look or feel real proud, but at least he's fair, decent and honest. Telling the angry chick to become a lesbian was mostly tongue in cheek, jokey-joke share a smirk kinda stuff. Maybe that's your problem and hers: Y'all don't know how to laugh, smile and not take yourselves and EVERYTHING around you hyper serious all of the time. YOU will never solve all of the worlds problems no matter how much time you apply towards that objective, so learn to breathe: to "sound" like you know how to take it easy, bcuz for real, after a while, walking around with that stick up your azz starts to hurt!

NWSO needs to arrange these posts in chronological order. It's tough scroll all the way down on an iPhone screen.

Hey that was my post!!!

Why do women think they are the only ones with relationship issues?

Grow the hell up and move the hell on!

I'm a firm believer in the Law of Attraction and that our perceptions = our reality. So it's no wonder this woman (and others out there) keep ending up with the men they don't want, because that's what they believe! I have a friend who says all men are dogs & will cheat if given the chance... and the men she's been with have been no good.

You have to believe that there are good, respectful men out there, but you also have to believe that you deserve one. That is also key in attracting the person that is best for you and in having a healthy relationship.

And... there wouldn't be dirty men out there, if there wasn't women allowing them to be that way. I thankfully have a great, respectful man in my life, but it took some work to get to this point. I had to instill in myself that I deserved a great man and real love and not enable someone to give me less.

Also, all us women out there who complain about men being no good? We need to step up and do our part in raising good men. If you have a son and he's seeing that men treat you like garbage, this wil heavily influence him. Help set the examples.

I just wanted to make the 100th comment!! YAY

From the looks of it NWSO's demographic is compromised of unrealistic "Angry (Black) Woman" who will only have sex with 10+ inch members hahahah.

Sisters have the lowest marriage rate in America and all this don't help, I'm sure. And ya wonder why yall can't keep/get a man.

Both posts have over 100 comments. Damn NWSO is exploiting your pain, hahahaha

Silly girls.

@the men...this is suppose to help any lady with her negative situations in the 'dating world'...

RELAX! CALM DOWN!

Its a real situation for us...damn don't worry...
T&A will be discussed in the next blog! =P

WAY OFF TOPIC@ SassyNola but fuc*ery is not a Howard creation. That term is about 20 plus years old and I believe it may have Caribbean or British/Caribbean origins. That is all!

@All Ladies

The best way to appoarch relationships are to have a certain self-confidence(almost arrogance). Although you may not be the best at everything or the most phyiscally attractive you are the best S.O. walking this planet.

Now you must earned this confidence by doing all thats in your power(within reason) to be the best from the dating stage til you guys hopefully die together. So if somebody chooses to abuse your gift you take it back. You leave the situation knowing that they are the loser.

@Jami

While I agree we cant just come out and say the reason she has been meeting people thats not for her isnt necessarily her. If you read the post(and its her honest philosophy) she has issues deeper then just bad luck. I have terrible luck(some self inflicted) in all aspect of life ,but Im not walking around hating a large group of people. Thats the kinda ignorance that spawns racism. In this case its genderism. If she wants to turn "Les" go ahead ,but if she actually wants a man this isnt the attitude thats gonna get it done.

And her biggest complaint seem to hover around sex. I consider myself a very honorable person ,but I love sex(atleast as far as I remember). And I believe in casual sex. Now I wouldnt run from a women who didnt agree with casual sex or wanted to wait til marriage. Really she should be happy most of these guys express how important sex are to them upfront.

When you get a little older, educated, and wiser there is a certain amount of liability that we must all take in our dating woes. When I was in my teens, I didn't care what a girl thought because I was just wanting the sex. When I got to my mid 20's most of that changed. I started to look for women that I could vibe with. Women that were like minded, self sufficient, independent, and positive...you know the things that make a solid PARTNER. If you bring a vibe of anger to a new venture then we will pick that vibe up and if its not what we could see ourselved dealing with, then you have now been downgraded in our minds to what we can see physically. If you present your self as self confident, self assured, well managed and with a positive outlook, then we would be foolish to let you get away. You get what you bring to the table most of the time. If you come with anger, negativity, and baggage then you're sure to bring out the worst kind of man.

I just read T-Mellows comments....Ladies....Read what the men have to say and IF you still feel as if you can "relate" to the angry black woman's view, as if she has a genunine and legitimate POV.......U are missing out on what it means to be responsible. If I tell you ALL the shyt you want to hear to get that azz--and you give it to me without allowing enough time to pass so you can SEE if what I say matches my actions--then yeah, it's on YOU! She read the Steve Harvey book, but did she EVER wait 3-6 months b4 having sex with a guy? Bcuz not many dudes who just wanna hit it, are gonna scheme on some puzzy for 90 days. 90 days of phone calls, weekend movies and dates to the club and restaurants. 90 days of scamming you for some azz? Naw, 98% of dudes don't have that much patience--if AZZ is all they want.
If you get an e-mail from a dude from Nigeria, who says he's got some money he wants to give you......and all you have to do is cash a money order and send him "X" amount, and knowing scams happen ALL the time, if you do it--who you gonna blame? The scammer? And if it happens 2,3,4 times--who you gonna blame each time? In the words of Ed Lover, the famous radio personality from NYC: C'mon Son! getdafuckoutaherewitdatbulshyt!

It's her.

Damn where have I been?

DC Man with a Plan you hit the nail on the head. I agree we have to take some responsibility we cant put all the blame the men for the things we allow them to do. If we allow a man to lie to us and we just look over don't get man when he lies. As women we always think we can change a man maybe if I cook for him or if i give him some good sex he will change. But to our surprise all the time the man never changes.
When are we going to start changing for ourselves and if we choose to settle for the lies do that and don't get man when that M/F starts lying cause you done settled for it for the last six months.
Ladies we need to start with some PUSSY control!!!

My advice to her would be.. dont let any man make you bitter. I have been hurt by men but you know what i do...forgive, try to learn something from the experience and move on. I also agree with other comments that say she needs to take a look at herself. A lot of times us women only blame the men and dont think how we contributed to them hurting us and trust me i know thats hard. One thing i know for a fact is that no one can do to you what you dont allow. Who cares if a man approaches you for sex... simply tell him your standards dont include casual sex and keep it moving. If he goes to another woman to get it....you shouldnt care because he obviously wasnt the right man for you. Many times we end up getting hurt because we try to sway in our personal standards for a man or dont tell him what we want upfront. REAL MEN will respect how you choose to live you life and a) realize they cant deal with it and find someone else or b) step up to the plate. NO cursing or insults needed. Being bitter will only hurt you. The same men you are sitting around hating are the ones you are walking around happy.

I’m late, but this was a good topic. I understand what she is saying, but she needs to lose the baggage. Each man needs to be given a chance and if he screws up, then kick him to the curb. Good men are out there, but they all seem to want to be players. I believe you should make them wait for sex; sure they are going to have sex while waiting. When they get it from you, they will understand why they waited. Pray not to be a bitter woman.

It's alright to vent but she needs to remeber that she was part of the problem too. She can say that this guy did this and that and I hate men but she seems to attract the same type man over and over. The bottom line is you always have a choice but the time you make it can either hurt or help your situation.

I believe if you meet someone new and things start feeling like your last bad relationship, the warning flag needs to be raised. It doesn't have to be bad things either but you should pay attention.

To me its funny how so many smart and educated people fall hard in relationships and tend to repeat mistakes.
In school we know why we didnt make the grade we wanted and either made changes to our studying "HABITS" or just decided that major wasn't "THE ONE" for you and switched. In life we tend to stick to the "HABITS" wether good or bad and try to make who we are with be "THE ONE".

Men KNOW how women should behave to get what they want and need out of a relationship. Women, IMO, do NOT know, until they've personally experienced enuff trial and error B/S, how a man acts when he's ready to be what she wants and needs. A Woman often substitutes the fantasy in HER mind of how men SHOULD behave, for the reality of how men DO behave. Those two don't mesh well together. Men don't fantasize about women’s behavior; We study y'all and we LEARN to do and say the shyt you think and say you want...then voilla--we're livin your fantasy--until we get bored or live long enuff to gain some maturity and wisdom. THAT, unfortunately, is one of the drawbacks to having a societal view that relies on men to initiate the dating process, bcuz we also get to make the rules and no young-man says it had to be fair. YOU deal with 10 immature dudes and NEVER STOP to assess WHY you keep choosing the SAME type of dude? Or why the same type of dude keeps finding you? YOU never see the common element is YOU? I can guarantee you the “common” trait these dudes had is they were ALL immature and not ready for a serious, monogamous relationship EVEN if they said they were; It’s about what you can verify not what you can remember hearing dude say. So even if those 10 dudes had different types of jobs and careers; even if some were from the south and some from the west; some college educated and some not: as a woman YOU think you’ve had “different” types of dudes but your evaluating the wrong things. It’s not their job, where they’re from or whether or not they had a dad at home—it’s WHERE they are in life along the maturity and honesty spectrum. You’re relying on superficial B/S to make a determination that dude is “a good dude.” You’re evaluating the wrong factors, hon, so naturally you’re gonna draw the wrong conclusions.

@DC Man With A Plan,
I know no one is perfect, but for argument's sake, even if the "angry" women was perfect, I believe a lot of her bad encounters with men would have still happened. Like I said in my 1st post, a lot of Ms. Rights ARE single.

I agree with a lot that @Shannon said. I know that being young, fun, intelligent, and attractive is not enough. Being honest and upfront is not enough.

However, we are forever more being told what we can do to be better.

Really, I'm tired of women having to be all of the above and then some while not enough men and women will focus what men can and should do better to help improve these "relationship/dating" issues.

I'm so glad the author of the post came back and gave more input because although I don't even bother wasting my time complaining about whats wrong with a lot of these men. I too experience the exact same thing Shannon (the post writer) has. I've been celibate (I'm not now)and dating and have been crystal clear on that because I'm not into wasting anyone's time. Its not fair to either person BUT time and time again the same thing happens and yes the men get mad at you for not giving it up like it was a hidden fact and was actually on the table to begin with. Often times the guys know well before we have out first date after all I do take hours to talk to men on the phone and get to know each other if I'm feeling them so there is never any confusion about who I am as a person and who they are but unfortunately time after time men (black and other because I do date all colors) front and pretend they are some other guy and all the sudden want to do a 360 on a date and change plans and want to go back to my place and fuck, take late movie and go to their place, or suggest a long weekend trip. As if I am that naive to beleive that I can do that without putting myself in a position that I'm not into. Or what kills me is the ones who will consistently try to paw me up and down like we really know each other and have the nerve to get offended.

Its sad and exhausting the amount of fuckery a person has to put up with while trying to meet the right person for yourself and yes I've even had to walk out on a date because the behavior was so disgusting and over the top.

It annoying to be honest with someone and they pretend to be okay with who you are and your morals but in the end there are only there to wear you down and get in your panties. Honesty is real and if you can't be honest with someone when they are being honest with you why blame them or get mad at them. I wasn't playing games they where.

Just Like the poster Shannon I too am tired of sex being the primary topic of conversation...something is seriously wrong with that. That is not get to know you 1st date, 1st phone call conversation it just isn't and men need to stop getting mad about it. You already knew what I was about but still persisted.
I've gotten this from all types of men from telemarketers to doctors, 20's to 50's, black, white, hispanic it just isn't a black issue. It's really too bad the the good, honest men come so few and far in between. Like I said I don't waste my time complaining about the lack of good men because to me it is useless but I am simply validating the posters feelings. This is what we are getting a lot of the time and it really time for men to rise to the occasion and and least be upfront and honest and don't play with women and front when we are telling you who we are and what we are about. It's not us especially when we're being up front it really you. I was taught to never play with a persons emotions, to never date past two dates if your not feeling a person and to be honest and never fuck/play with another persons emotions but often too many men don't reciprocate. However to be honest it's really hard getting to date one or two because men are rarely even asking for dates. From my experience and from watching my friends they ask for you to come through or vice versa or stay the weekend with them or just BS. Yes, I see mostly all of my single friends do it but that's not me.

@Shannon & Emotionalfunk

*News Flash*

PEOPLE LIKE SEX!

If you are in the minority then this is what you have to deal with. If you treat your vagina like its the "Holy Grail" then yes its on you to deal with all the men who cant understand you guys mindset.

There isnt anything wrong with them. If anything you are the minority so society says there's something wrong with you guys.

The men hear you say I dont wanna have sex. But what you fail to realize is probably the last dozen females he's been with sexually said the same thing. So he thinks its just part of the process.

Maybe as women if you guys would mean what you say and say what it is you mean more often we wouldnt have this kind of confusion.

And you guys are talking shit about males. But females are the biggest game players around. Thats why we say check yourself's before checking others.

@Tha Throne

You see the sad thing is you fail to accept, understand, and realize that there is something wrong with men like that. You say

"Maybe as women if you guys would mean what you say and say what it is you mean more often we wouldnt have this kind of confusion."

However, I've already stated and so has the poster that we have been up front and blunt about the issue of sex. That is stating what I mean. You see its your turn to say your not down with waiting and then lets part ways. Not accuse us of not saying what we mean when we've already done so.

Everything else about my vagina being the "Holy Grail" is irrelevant because...it mine its simple as that and I share myself who who I deem worthy.

Also, we're not talking shit as you say. At least I'm not. I'm validating the posters experience and saying yes I too get the same issues. That isn't talking shit. I'm speaking my truth and she's speaking her truth. There was no personal attack or hate diatribe. I didn't attack all men, I didn't attack you either but you just accused me of being a game player and accused me of checking you when I'm talking about MY experience.

Now, you also said

"There isnt anything wrong with them. If anything you are the minority so society says there’s something wrong with you guys."

Well, sorry I disagree there is something wrong with a person who doesn't listen. If I give no illusions and am real and vocal but a person ignores and disregard that that then they have a problem. People need to listen to each other and accept their truth.

Also, you say:

"The men hear you say I dont wanna have sex. But what you fail to realize is probably the last dozen females he’s been with sexually said the same thing. So he thinks its just part of the process."

Who care about the last dozen females actions. I have no way of know what they did. Each person is a new situation and is not to be held to the standard of the last person. I don't expect one person to do as the last person that's ridiculous and it not even rational. If some people are not open to not casual random sex with you then it foolish for that guy to pretend that they are okay with that, hell its also deceitful. Don't get mad just match a persons honesty with honesty and we will all be alright. You see thats the "game playing" right there when you hear what a person says and you say screw it I'm gonna believe something else any way and I'm gonna get mad when they prove me "right" and stick to their word.

overprotecting your heart and not being open to love, can be a very dangerous thing, but where does one draw the line?

I have read some of the comments and most of the women seem to think that there is no such thing as a good man. Some went as far as to say that all we are interested in is sex.

If a woman keeps meeting men who only want to use them for their body, then perhaps she needs to examine herself to see what it is about her that keeps attracting these men.

I think it has already been established that men and women do not think alike. By default, men are turned on by what they see whereas woman are turned on by what they hear. For example, a man can be walking hand in hand with his wife and a beautiful woman walked by and though he is with his wife, he cannot help but stare. This doesn't necessarily mean he wants to be with that woman sexually, it's just man's nature. A woman on the other hand will often times disregard a handsome guy walking by.

Be that as it may, women are very cleaver. Even if she is checking out the guy, she is very careful not to let her partner be aware that she is doing so as she doesn't just act on her feelings. She has the ability to think ahead so as to not hurt her partner's feelings. A man will just immediately breaks his neck to stare and this cause a problem.

He may try to explain that he is not interested in the stranger, which may be the truth, but it's just that men do not think as quickly and sensibly in these situations as women do, hence he is judged wrongfully.

I believe that to every bad man there is a bad woman. We are all human and by default, we are carnal minded and have the potential to hurt someone. That's just the way it is.

I also believe that some women have a tendency to just let themselves go after being in a relationship with a guy for a while. After a few months, she no longer keeps her hair fixed, wear nice clothes around the house and make herself attractive to her partner.

The fact that men are turned on by what we see and not what we hear, as often times we're not even listening, if you let yourself go, we will lose interest.

As men we also have a role to play. When our women get a new hair do, compliment her. When she cooks a nice meal, tell her how much you enjoy it. When she cleans the house, let her know you appreciate her efforts, when she buys a sexy outfit to seduce you, it doesn't matter how much it cost, let her know how sexy she looks.

In my experience, though limited as I am only 26 years old, women love it when their men show their appreciation whatever they do. Even if the man is broke or not even that attractive. A woman is not to bothered about that. If she feels appreciated, she will continue to make herself available for her man's pleasure.

@N2Deep

This goes much farher and much deeper than you are aware of and that's okay. What makes sex good is how you feel about the person. I have dated men in my past--about '98 or '99--who were not endowed, but that wasn't important to me because how we felt about each other was more important to me. He ended up leaving to be with a woman who would have sex with him and she criticized him for his size and he is just a devastated mess. They never established a bond beyond sex. I'm not really sure why she married him or why he stayed with her for so long, but whatever works...

But the thing is, you have just helped to make my point! Apparently you base the success or failure of your relationships on sex and its quality and that is a recipe for diaster. Sex is not and should not be the basis of connection and a relationship.

Your question: Just say you got the guy you wanted and he acted like you wanted then you get married and get to the honeymoon and either he had a little dick or he couldn't fuck, what would you do and how long would you last in the relationship?

My answer: I would take it with a grain of salt and I would last quite a long time in the relationship because I'm not basing the relationship on sex. It is the emotional bond I want and it is the emotional bond that will stand the test of time and that is what people like you don't understand. It's almost as if you're saying, "Well, if the sex ain't good, why should I stay?" Well, why are you with the person to begin with? Is is just about sex? If sex is the dealbreaker for you and others with like mindset, then you are certainly not ready nor are you prepared for a mature relationship. There will be times when sex won't be possible and what if sex isn't possible at all? Men are affected by ED, they take required medications necessary for their health that affects their ability to achieve erection--like muscle relaxers, beta-blockers, and analgesics--and sometimes they can't take Viagara, Levitra or Cialis with those meds and they can't stop the meds because they need to take them. Some men have prostate problems that make sex impossible. Women have issues that make sex impossible--having a baby, well woman checkups, endometriosis, prolapse of the bladder, uterus, vagina, certain cancers--and none of these conditions are limited to older people. I have dated 50-year-old men who could go at a strech and I have dated 30-year-old men who can't even get it up. Because there was no sex, it made it easier to get to know each other because we could see things as they were and not as we wished they were. The older gentlemen developed cancer and went back home on the West Coast to get treatment and to spend his remaining time with his family and the younger one was transferred to another state for his job, so the relationships disintegrated.

Relationships change over time. I would like to think my patient didn't stay with his wife for 39 years because they were sexing it every night; in fact, he hasn't been able to perform for almost seventeen years. They are still together and still in love, having celebrated an anniversary last month. I see the same thing with several of my patients and yes, sexual habits are something I have to be privy to because I'm their nurse and I have to inform them of the risks posed if they decide to take Viagara. Because of the emotional bond between my patients and their wives, sex isn't even an issue and their love is even stronger. There was only one exception and that was a patient who suffered a fall that broke his spine and his wife promptly filed for divorce but when she learned he wasn't paralyzed, she wanted to come back and he did the right thing by saying no and signing the papers. She didn't care about him as a person.

*I should also mention that the majority of my patients are not endowed at all and their wives loved them and stayed anyway and trust, these women never touched a man before their husbands.

Believe it or not, the longer a woman goes without sex, the more content she becomes. This is because sex is more stressful for women and because it is a major source of consternation in a relationship--believe me, women of all ages, not just those in menopause, experience a lack of desire in sex and it is perfectly normal. This is because while women get the desire, men have convinced women, for the men's benefit, that you have to have sex, that you can't live without it, that you can't have a relationship without it and that is not true. Most women are unwilling to remain single and know that a man will not stay if there is no sex, so they give in, even though they rather not be doing it. Women actually want men to get to know them and not rush to sex so quickly. When you wait to have sex, especially for marriage, there are so many benefits to it. For one, there is no one to compare to, and men are notorious for wondering if their woman got it better from another man and how they measure up to other men. Women are the same to a point, but only to the extent of the emotional connection. This is why men can have sex with several women and be married and not see it as cheating--no emotional connection; in his mind, if he doesn't have feelings for a woman he slept with, then it's not cheating, but it is.

As for your sarcastic comments about my understanding of men and my studies, I'm sure you're aware that men are great pretenders. It is obvious you are totally cluesless about people and no, it's not about attaching what I read to people I meet, it's about applying what I've observed to what I see. This goes far beyond what I study because this is something I've observed long before I began studying psychology--the study of behavior; how people behave and why and this is something that applies to everyone, even you, whether you like it or not--and it is from these observations that a therapist is better able to help people, which I have been able to do. This is why I do not have sex and this is how I weed out the men who are not serious. Sex is important to men, but getting to know each other is important to me. You have to know who and what is getting into your bed and body and the problem is no one really takes the time to do that.

I know quite a few women who are not sexually active at this time. They are actually happier because they don't have to worry about the sex-driven men who force their own agenda and are better able to focus on whatever it is they want to focus on.

As far as available women outnumbering available men, this is true to a point. This is because so many men are not interested in relationships or marriage and are quite happy being unencumbered and free.

--------------------
I know quite a few women who are not sexually active at this time. They are actually happier because they don’t have to worry about the sex-driven men who force their own agenda and are better able to focus on whatever it is they want to focus on.
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Or don't have to deal with the stress, and physical/emotional side effects of birth control. Don't have to worry about getting pregnant or an STD. Getting tested, hoping that they don't contract one of the many STDs that men are asymptomatic for, and can't really be tested for.

Don't have to worry about getting emotionally bonded to someone with whom they convinced themselves they could have a casual sexual relationship, but fell for him anyway. Don't have to have the extra turmoil attached to the heartbreak.

They're not necessarily happier not being sexually active, they're happier being celibate over WHAT THEY HAD BEFORE. It's the lesser of two evils. But given the option, they would definitely take a healthy, committed, monogamous relationship WITH sex.

NWSO is a more sexually liberated blog so you either see more sexually liberated women or see more of the sexually liberated side of women (or both). But when you see the emotional reality, for a lot of women, sex is not as simple and as care free as people want it to be.

Pretending that it is kinda allows men to avoid even acknowledging the emotional complexity of it all and certainly allows them to escape accountability.

I don't think there's a woman here who can't relate to at least SOME part of what Shannon wrote in her follow up.

But I do have a really burning question:

If you're not having sex, that should alleviate some of the turmoil, but your post was so intense that you came off like a woman who experienced being screwed and dumped many times.

You study psychology so I really want to know why your reaction is so strong. From my POV, you should be able to be much more nonchalant about it because you're physical attachment is not there, there is only a loss of hope not a giving of oneself only to be used and/or rejected.

Why is it that you abstain yet your response was just as bitter as, if not more so, than the women who were having sex, even the ones who had contracted STDs? Because that to me indicates that the reaction, itself, has little to do with sex and little to do with the men themselves.

How can a person be just as furious about what someone WANTS to use them for, as the ones who actually did get used?

I just want to clarify my previous post:

It's not so much that women, who were previously sexually active, are HAPPIER being celibate, they are happier with celibacy than whatever it is they were doing before. They, usually, believe that celibacy will either get them what they want or avoid a lot of unpleasant consequences.

Shannon, it seems like you are frustrated because celibacy is not getting you what you want. Or to rephrase that, you believed that doing things this way would allow you to have a certain experience, and it hasn't quite worked out that way.

Truthfully I don't know where the middle ground lies. It seems like it would be hard to find men, of any race, who want to wait until marriage to have sex, when for years (or even decades) they have been having sex. I'm not saying go have sex, but rather:

If your goal is to wait until marriage to have sex, why are you dating in the GENERAL dating pool? It seems like you would be more successful focusing on dating within the small circle of like-minded men (probe deeply religious ones), because you are looking for a guy that's uncommon. To be dating regular guys and getting frustrated that they are regular is kinda silly.

If I were in your shoes, I'd go yo my closest male friends, explain what I was looking for, deal with all their objections and opinions, and ask where I'd be likely to find such a guy. I'd ask if they knew a guy like this and what he was like and what I might be trading off to get this. But you probably don't have male friends.

The more specific and refined your criteria is, the more strategic you should be about dating. Just dating general men with that level of personal standards really is like trying to find a needle in a haystack. You're just going to frustrate yourself. You should, really, only be dating among a small group of men with whatever shared criteria would fit that kinda guy. This way you're not making broad sweeping generalizations about men who just AREN'T FOR YOU but aren't necessarily bad men or assholes.

People seem to think that dating is about going out with lots of people in hopes to find the right one, that's bullshit, that's silly. When companies interview for jobs, they don't bring everyone in for interviews. They either go through thousands of resumes or they recruit, but whatever it is, they target, they focus on those who are most likely to be a good fit and only bring in those people for an interview. They weed out at several stages to not waste their time with people who aren't going to make the cut. And they definitely don't start bitching about the majority of their interviewees being idiots, they refine their selection criteria to weed them out.

I realize that for the most part this isn't something that every woman experiences and therefore this isn't your reality, so I don't take offense to the comments, remarks and criticisms offered here. Yes, I am a psychology major, but one thing has nothing to do with the other. I am aware of the existence of sexually liberated people who believe celibacy is against nature or wrong or whatever the issue may be. As a HR manager and nurse, yes, we recruit a lot of people at first, then weed out those who aren't a good fit, which is why we do interviews. Not every nurse, technician, PA and PCA is the best fit for the organization and yes, it is frustrating when such people submit applications that turn out to be a cat's face of near-truths, total lies and a ton of omissions, like a criminal record or falsified records of education or licenses. It can be frustrating and yes, we do bitch about it amongst other hiring managers (our little secret!). It is costly to have to do so much to weed out undesirables and that means we, the managers, have to step up our game; however when we do, it shrinks the available pool to a puddle. Not everyone has an unbroken record of employment, not everyone can pass a credit check and not everyone can secure government clearance.

It works the same way with men and relationships. I meet different men and then I weed out the undesirables; my problem is there is nothing left after I weed everyone out. I pay attention to what men do because men are creatures of action. Men are simple; what you see is what you get and that is a consensus even among my males friends, who are also psych majors.

Because no one here is privy to what I experience everyday, it's easy to conclude that it must be something I am doing, but it's really not the case. My whole problem is I don't have to do anything for these men to approach me the way they do; it is because of the way I'm built. It's not about what the general opinion is; I'm talking about MY REALITY. My reality is men don't bother to take time to get to know me without talking about sex. Of the men I do socialize with, they are already committed to someone else and yes, I bounce ideas off them, but I don't take their opinion too seriously because they dog and criticize other men for doing what they themselves are doing, which makes them hypocrites.

For some women, there may be good men out there. But good men--well, what makes a man good is relative and differs from woman to woman. I know I come off as a ballbreaker and that's because I am. I do not and will not put up with men's bad behavior; I don't have to. I know some women will give a man a pass time and again, but when you do that, that tells a men several things: He doesn't have to do much to get you and when you forgive and go back to him, it tells him something else: He doesn't have to do much to keep you. I do not and will not chase after a man; I'm not supposed to. I will give a man a chance and I will tell him upfront what I expect. I set the expectations and terms in the beginning; that is what you're supposed to do. It's not like I'm saying, "Okay, I am looking for a husband. What are you looking for? What are your intentions? What do you want to get out this relationship? What are your views on marriage? What about children?" I'm not interrogating these men; I am simply stating what I want and expect from them if they are looking for things to go further. I am open to letting things develop; the problem is, they never do once men realize sex is not forthcoming. That is why I don't want to emphasize the sex issue; as a couple, we need to know if we are emotionally compatible. What good does it do to be sexually compatible (whatever that means; I think it's something men invented anyway) if you can't stand each other after the orgasm is over, you take a shower and your clothes are back on? In a relationship like that, if it's based on sex, it is doomed from the start. Most men are not going to see the point of settling down if they can get it all without being married. Sure they'll propose but most of the time, they'll prolong things and procrastinate settng a date and then five years pass by with no plans or preparation for a wedding. I see this a lot.

I realize that I may not be right for a man and that's okay. What I don't agree with and what I don't like is for a man to tell me, "I think you are a great woman and I like you a lot, but you wouldn't make a good partner because you won't have sex." These men have only spent copious amounts of energy trying to get me into bed by any means necessary. They don't my last name, my birthday or my favorite color or where I was born; they don't care about that. I usually turn on my heels at that point and then I get the ultimatum: Either have sex or I leave. I stand my ground. He leaves. I mean, sure, he hangs around to see if I might say, "Oh, I miss you so much; come over and we'll make love," but when I don't say that--I have men still waiting around for sex after a year or two of my stating my intention to wait for marriage and they still get angry when they realize I haven't changed my mind; som even ask me, "What will it take to make you change your mind about sex?" and I say, "Marriage," and they just shake their head and walk--they leave. When there is no sex, it's easier to walk away because there is no emotional investment. When sex enters the picture, discernment is much lowe and most women will do anything to keep things going.

I have the right to my feelings and beliefs and if I believe ALL MEN only want sex, then I will believe that and deep down, most women and even some men know it's true. Men don't go on dates or meet women to discuss Obama's healthcare bill or to play Trivial Pursuit; they don't look at a woman because her mind is such a turnon. Men are visual and I am more than aware of that; I encounter men everyday because of the way I'm built.

Simply put, I simply hold myself--and my body--to a higher standard. It's a shame that more people don't do the same. I wish men would learn to be gentlemen and learn to approach a woman WITHOUT sex in his mind first off. It's hard enough to be in a relationship and I realize I can't compete with women who are having sex and I can't expect men to accept my terms and conditions, but I can expect men to respect me and my decision even if they don't agree with it. There is no need for the disrespect they give. That is why I feel the way I do.

I don't dress in a provocative way; I don't have to dress like that to attract a man's attention. Simply put, men don't know how to approach a woman built like I am with a modicum of respect. And as a grad student, there is not much difference between a student and a psychologist; they're one and the same. Psychologists learn the same things I'm learning, plus new advances and studies in the field that weren't available when they were in school.

Make no mistake about it: most of the men I have problems with are older, in their forties and up to sixty-five, so while testosterone may play a role, age does not. My perspective has nothing to do with my age, regardless of what people may believe. My perspective hasn't changed much in the past eleven years or so because men haven't changed. Simply put, I can't change because men won't change.

What most of you don't understand is it doesn't matter what I do or how I dress; most of you automatically assumed that I'm a provocative dresser. It's commonplace to assume the worst of people and clearly I'm no exception to that rule. How I dress is not the problem because i don't dress up; all I wear are baggy sweats and scrubs. I don't wear the cute outfits other women wear. I don't wear makeup and I keep my hair covered in a black scarf wrapped in a bun at the back of my head--it looks nice that way--but it is my build that is the problem, which is why I hardly if ever go out. I meet men online and we talk for weeks and months before I feel comfortable going out. Since my picture is only of my face, they have no idea what my body lookis like and I do that because I want men to get to know me, the person.

Another thing: contrary to popular belief, I'm actually not angry. I'm not bitter nor am I suffering from AWS. I am just a woman who is worn down; the reaction men have to my body is just wearing me down and I'm just tired of it. I would love to dress up, but I can't. I don't dress in a provocative way because I don't care for that look. I actually dress down because of it.

Another thing: I can have all the conversation in the world and take all the time and eternity getting to know men; I do this when I meet men, but it comes down to the same thing: sex, their reaction to my body. I have more self control than probably most women, seeing as I don't settle foe less than what I want, but I don't see why my decision has to bring so much down on me. What is wrong with a man simply accepting that I will not be having sex with him and going on his way? Why the violent reaction toward something he was already aware of? What is so wrong with approaching me with respect? I don't carry myself in a way that says I don't deserve respect, I know for a fact I don't. I don't dress up at all, I don't go to clubs, I don't drink, I don't smoke. I work out three times a week and I go to school and I work. I really don't socialize; I prefer to stay home and no, I don't go crazy or buck wild when I do go out. That's not my style. Since I know me better than anyone, I can definitely say that, even though I know several of you are going to assume I'm lying and that's okay.

All I'm saying is what is wrong with men being honest? If they can't, don't or won't wait for marriage for sex, then why not say so upfront? Why say that's not a problem if it really is? Why accept it if that's not what he's looking for?

If a man approaches a curvy woman in baggy sweats, with a scarf wrapped around her hair and no makeup, why does he have to make some sexual comment about her body? What is so wrong with seeing her as a person? Why am I so wrong for wanting men to see me as a person? I am more than my body, much more. I have more to offer than sex and it would be nice if men actually bothered to find that out.

@Shannon:

There is nothing inherently wrong in your stance...it's just that your results are not compatible with your beliefs. There are many women who have determined they don't want sex before marriage...I know at least two of my friends who took the same stance and are married. As a top-heavy woman myself, and one who enjoys sex, I too, feel as though men have approached me in that way more often than not. As a younger woman, the constant catcalling and men saying shit in the streets was humiliating. As an older woman, sometimes I miss it. I do think there is something underlying here that is more than what you're saying. It kind of fits the saying that if you are a hammer, everything you see is nails. I don't believe that every man wants sex right off the bat - or even if they do, there are others willing to wait if they care enough about the woman. Either you are not attracting them or you are not making it clear to the men that you are dating what your parameters are. If there are still men who are unsure after a year of dealing with you, then that's an issue. I understand your need for emotional connection - I share it. But I have recognized that my need for sexual connection has sometimes supplanted my desire for an emotional one. I don't know if that's the case. It sounds as though you have some issues around the idea of sex itself - and not just sex after marriage. I don't know you, and I don't know your whole story...only you know what is true for you. I just hope and wish that whatever is going on between us as black people that we can resolve. There are too many of us unloved and alone or in a relationship and miserable. It may sound trite, but it's a good say to say it - as Stevie once eloquently said Love's in need of love today, don't delay send yours in right away.

Shannon, you should relax more and meditate like I said in a comment earlier. ALL WOMEN deal with the BS from men... If only men knew how stressful it is for women to get dressed and try to look good withiut being too sexual...*sigh*

Anyway you should 'look to God' if you are looking for a realtionship...If you believe then you should pray.
Rasta was right...reread his comment. You are looking for a different type of man. It wouldn't hurt if you changed how you met them.
Like Elle said... the telephone is a good way to weed them out!
Hellifikno, Malia, and Sherell also made some great points..

I hope you don't think you'll find the guy by dressing down ALL the time. Whether it be in clothes or in behavior. Im casual also but my behavior speaks volumes of who I am. Stay positive and don't let this weigh you down...

I get attention, but I know how to classify it also... good and bad.
Just keep truckin'...

Also, you have male friends? See if they know anyone that you would want to date...

p.s YES! I understand its a double edge sword about men and dating but at the end of the day. Its not about them... Its your life. The Games were created by men and they change with every guy you go out with. So stay strong in who you are... but still learn your lessons... and smile!

@ Da Throne

Yes you are right. A man finds me sexually attractive and wants to have sex with me. Poor me. I suppose I should be flattered that a man wants to have sex with me. I should be happy that yet another man wants to have sex with me.

You think I'm complaining about a man finding me attractive? Apparently you haven't been reading my posts. My complaint isn't about men finding me attractive; my complaint is about men who don't want more than that, men who see nothing beyond my body.

What the hell is so wrong with wanting a man to hold real conversation with me about real topics, real issues?! What the hell is so wrong with wanting a man to get to know me?!

Okay, granted: I am well aware that men are attracted to what they see. I am an attractive woman. But, goddamn, I'm so much more than that! How about a comment on the book I'm reading (I read a lot when I'm out) or what's on the front of my shirt (I have lots of shirts from Prairie View back when I went to school there) or at least asking my name?

What is so wrong with: I'm out at the bookstore, enjoying a good book when a man encounters me at the table as he passes by. He doubles back and comes over to where I am. "Well, hello. My name is John and I couldn't help but notice you. And your name is...?" I would rather have that than, "Damn, you got some big ass titties; when you gon' let me suck 'em?" or "Shit, you so fine. You wanna come to my house? I know you must love to fuck." And believe me, this comes from men who are CEOs on down to men who don't have a pot to piss in or a window to throw it out of. Because of how I'm built, this is the kind of bullshit I deal with everyday and I'm just tired of it.

Meeting men online isn't much better. I only have a picture of my face on my profile, so the men I meet have no idea how I look, so after several weeks or months of talking on the phone, we finally go on a date and since it is a date, I want to look my best. A knee-length pencil skirt with a sweater blouse and a blazer is conservative enough--or so I thought. I can't hide my shape under a circus tent, so of course once we meet, all of our conversation over the past few weeks or months goes flying right out the window and from then on, the only topic is sex, so I end the date. Doesn't matter that I've already told him upfront my feelings about sex.

My thing is this: Just like men say women should never bring up commitment, marriage and/or children on the first date, the same applies to sex for women. I know men are saying how tired they are of women like me talk about how there are no good men out there or marriage or commitment. Well, guess what? Nor do I want to hear, "Baby, my dick is ten inches long, I can fuck all night and I know 300 different positions in bed." We don't care. Well, some of us don't. I'm aware that there are some women who want to have sex outside of marriage and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they are happy.

Simply put, I don't think I'm asking for too much when I expect respect from men. Just because I look a certain way doesn't mean I'm sexual or anything and say what you will, but when a woman has had several men approach her over the course of almost eleven years and ALL of them pushed the sex issue, what logical conclusion do you think she is going to draw? And it has nothing to do with anything I've done, whether you want to believe that or not.

Being single has never been an issue for me. I get along with myself just fine. I don't socialize much because I'm very busy, but I do try. As for a relationship, I'm not really sure why so many assume I'm so focused on having a relationship or that I am looking for a man to take care of me or I just want to say I'm married. Hell, if that were the case, I could have been married by now; there are several men out there who would like to marry me, but I don't want to marry them. I know I wouldn't be happy with these men; one is a very dominant, controlling type who would want to control my every move and the other is a childlike adult still living with his parents and not interested in employment or moving out.

For me to be in any relationship, I want to be happy with the one I'm with and I want him to be happy with me. However, the bone of contention is the whole sex thing. You can have a relationship without sex and you won't develop a terminal illness from lack of sex. It's far from the case of being celibate isn't working out for me; it's working out fine. I don't like for a man to come at me on the street and say something like, "Can I get those big ass titties?" or even worse, walk up to me and feel me up as I pass by. Those are the ones I pepper spray. I don't care what, that shit is not flattering, to me at least, and it's quite disrespectful. What makes it worse is when the man, who was in the wrong, curses me out and makes it seem like something's wrong with me.

It doesn't cost anything to show respect and good manners. If men are indeed good men, then they really need to behave like the good, decent men they are.

@Shannon

I get that and yes its a shame that people are what I call "Mircowave babies" (They want everything overnite) ,but you have to realize these are the times you live in.

I would love to find a female to spend the rest of my life with. But the majority of females that Im attracted to are materialistic and dont have a clue what the purpose of a relationship is. But I havent cursed all women.

Personally if I dont like a female I tend to lose interest weither or not we're having sex.

I'm nit a religious person; in fact, I strive to avoid the overly religious. On a different point, my favorite bookstore, which is only five minutes from my house, is located in a mall and malls are open to all kinds of people and all kinds of people pass by.

It really gets me that so many people assume I'm the problem. I'm overanalyzing, there's no way a man I've talked over the phone hasn't told me how many inches he has or what he wants to do to me with them---okay, fine. Apparently I'm not aware of what men are saying to me and I'm extremely unaware of what men are doing to me, so I concede to the group.

Every woman is different. Some women can handle this kind of thing; I'm not one of them. It can be difficult when you encounter this kind of thing day in and day out. Not putting a picture on my dating profile does nothing; eventually we will meet in person if we click online and over the phone.

Another thing: Just because all women get approached like this doesn't mean it's okay. That's like saying crime is okay because it happens to everybody. This kind of thing is not okay. It has nothing to do with my self-esteem or POV; this is a hardcore fact. I know several people think I'm sexually backwards. Well, instead of calling me backwards, how about thinking maybe I'm holding myself to a higher sexual golden standard?

If people want to think I'm just complaining, by all means; you are entitled to. I know how I feel and what I'm doing and it doesn't matter if no one here thinks I'm not objective or my perspective is cloudy; I know it isn't. I know what my reality is and I understand that no one else experiences it.

This is not a case of me letting men get me down and dictating my life; socializing has never been my strong suit anyway. This is, however, a call to men on their behavior. It would be nice if someone said, "Yes, men, Shannon is right; you all do need to check yourselves when it comes to how you act toward women." I don't care how a woman acts or carries herself, she still deserved to be treated with respect, just like a man would want to be treated with respect. I will say one thing: I really appreciate NWSO and his understanding of my situation and my subsequent justified frustration.

All I'm saying is I lead with my mind and not my behind. Nothing wrong with that. I wish more people would give it a try.

@ Shannon,

After reading your background, some of your comments, such as the pepper spraying, make more sense. After all, it is your body and nobody has the right to put their hands on it without your consent. I can also understand your frustration, as being an extremely attractive woman with a nice body, but with an equally beautiful brain, can be a frustrating endeavor in this day and age.

I hear that you're not religious, but my mother, who became a born again christian, decided as a result to remain celebate until she married again, and expressed over the years similar frustrations as you have. The problem she has, other than being gorgeous and looking like my older sister rather than my mother, is that she has so much bum that she could wear a circus tent and it would still be on display for the world to see..lol.

When she decided to stop having sex before marriage she was engaged to a man who had also gotten baptized with her. She had just moved into their newly purchased house, and all the bridesmaid dresses had just finished being fitted. The wedding was less than a year away. But he could not deal with the idea of them not having sex anymore or being able to sleep in the same bed as her and became moody and insolent...he actually put his hands on her..I wasn't there or he wouldn't have hands anymore...and she ended it.

After that experience, my mother was very convinced all men were dirty perverts who were only out for one thing. She had been very selective prior to celebacy anyway so she knew men could be one track minded, but after her failed engagement to this man she had been with for years, was just about to marry and whom she had just bought a house with, she became very jaded. Not only did her clothing become excessively modest and unflattering, but she began seeing each and every man as someone who was out to get into her pants...

She had expressed many of the same experiences you had, and she actually ended up drawing so far into herself and her other goals with work and God that she pretty much stopped socializing or even having general conversation...with anyone, myself included...unless it was about God, because she inherently feared that most conversation would invariably lead to something sexual and she was just so TIRED of hearing about it and the subject being forced on her when it was the last thing in the world she was interested it...

I am not saying this is you or anything, but rather trying to say that I see a parallel. And I wanted to tell you that when she (largely because of my influence ) started putting herself together really nicely, started hanging out and socializing, having random conversations and laughing her butt off at random things, even silly men craning their neck at her, she suddenly started having less issues with these pervy men. I think in part it had something to do with her perception of life. But I think that this totally put together woman, who was attractive, spunky and intelligent, and who would so confidently tell people she is a born again virgin waiting for marriage, and could as confidently as a popular 16 year old virgin roll her eyes and make them sound ridiculous for even approaching her or asking her about it more than once (sometimes even once), just began to repel the men who were no good or only after her 'goodies' and began to attract men who were looking for substance, for women who knew who they were and what they were about.

Even if you don't feel this applies to you, the story should at least give you some hope that things can be different. Maybe yours will be a different deciding factor. I wouldn't say it's your fault some men are dirt, but I will say each and every situation we are in we do play a part in. Just from a psychology standpoint, we all know that no matter how awful other people are, no matter how much we don't have control over their actions, we do know that if we find ourselves consistently in the same situation then we are most definitely playing some role in getting to that point. Even subconsciously. And using my mom as an example, while there are complete douchebags out there, there are men who want a woman and who she is enough to wait for her. My mother has been engaged once since then (5 year relationship) and the relationship grew apart, and has now been married for over a year to a man who adores the socks off of her.

The point is, decent men do exist. There is nothing wrong with being fed up with the men who aren't decent, who don't see a woman's worth. But just as it's wrong for a man to see that you have large breasts and assume that you are only a sex toy, or for a man to hear your statement that you are abstaining from sex until marriage as some bullshit line he just needs to wait out (because there ARE women who say things like this as a game to try and find a man who will wait for them, even though they have no intention of waiting), it is wrong for you to say that all men are only about sex, only want a woman for sex, and aren't willing to be with a woman who wants to wait until marriage.

@Shannon

No this is nothing like a crime in no way. And yes this is your problem. Drunk people are annoying. There are a lot of drunken people where I hang out. Therefore when I go I am fully prepared mentally to deal with then. Now if I wasnt I always have the option to stay home.

Learn to deal with it. I cant imagine that no respectful men would ever approach you if your as attractive as you say you are.

This is the advice I will leave you with(and this is for any female in your situation). Take dating into your own hands. Next time you see a guy you like that seem respectful approach him like you would like to be approached. If your bait isnt pulling in the kinda fish you want. Perhaps you should become the hunter instead of the hunted.

What did you think of this woman’s comment?

I would truly, and if for nothing but her own sanity, believe that she’s just venting. I would hope that she has a better perspective on men and not want them all to jump in a volcano (lmao @ that).

Did she come off angry to you or do you think I misinterpreted her sentiments?

Hell yeah sis is angry….fire was jumping off the page. She scared me and I’m a chick. Again, I hope this was something she captured “in the heat of the moment”.

Do you think it’s fair to judge all men (or women) based on the actions of others?

No, if you live your life like that you’ll never be open to “what if”… You are supposed to learn from your experiences and then sit back make a honest and fair observation of BOTH individuals and their actions and “govern yourself accordingly”

Have you ever been frustrated with the lack of viable dating prospects out there?

Sure, but once I stopped looking, it just happened. In fact it was there all the time. I like to think God placed him in my life when we needed each other the most.

Does your bad luck at love make you bitter or do you learn from each experience and move on?

Hurt is hurt and it’s a very real thing in the moment. After you lick your wounds and evaluate you are probably able to realize that what happened was for the best. If it was not meant to be, why spend the emotions? You should be able to glean something from the experience so as to not travel that particular road again but if ALL your relationships end up bad, then you gotta take a long hard look at YOU. Yes, men are different from women. (That’s sometimes the beauty of it all) They think differently, but they are also warm, loving, compassionate and considerate. They can also be selfish but if a man cares about you, he’ll stop and adjust when you say “that was selfish” or “can you consider my point on this subject”

Ladies, do you really believe that relationship books/blogs offer any useful advice?

If to offer nothing but a different perspective, yes, they do serve a useful purpose. I like to see the male responses to the queries posed here, as they provide insight into the male psyche.

Would you consider yourself “angry” or do you know any women that are?

Naw, not angry. Have had my share of “bad” relationships but it takes too much personal energy to be angry. Totally believe in the wonderful power of love and all the joy it can bring. It would totally depress me to have fantastic professional and personal triumphs and not have anybody to share that with. Don’t have to have a man always but believe that special one does exist.

Yeah it's exhausting!
Ever consider breast reduction surgery??

*standing ovation for N2Deep*

Shannon,

If I am to take you at your word that your boobs are so large as to incite "when can I suck them" and "I got ten inches" from strangers, and to keep you so isolated because of the attention, then I am inclined to think they ridiculously large (like the Jenny Juggs episode of Nip Tuck). If that is the case, then you'd definitely had been advised, time and time again, to get a breast reduction, since you are in the medical profession.

But you have not gotten one. Which leads me to believe that your breasts really aren't all that problematic, it's your inability to tolerate any unwanted attention that is the problem. Because going to school online and avoiding socialization, because of your boobs, is extreme. Unless, you look like Jenny Juggs but then you'd be having reduction, and since you aren't, I'm going in an endless loop because it makes no sense.

Because the problem with you is some of your issues are just typical issues that most attractive women deal with, and with that, I'm with Elle-- boohoo get over it. You think Miss Tig-ol-bitties is the only one who has ever been accused of using body/looks/sex to get to the top, girl stop. Seriously, that's getting you all up in a bunch. Please. Put your big girl panties on and deal with it.

So, I have come to the conclusion that one of the two must be the case:

1- your boobs are enormous, should be reduced (for medical purposes more than anything) but you insist that everyone else should change because waah waah that's not fair
2- your boobs are not large enough to warrant reduction, you can't cope with the unwanted attention and feel that others should change because it's not fair that you should have to deal with it

Either way, the only things under your control are your coping mechanism and your breast size.

No one here really gets it, so I'm just going to leave it alone. I'm just tired of being attacked time and again. Assume whatever you want about me, I don't care anymore. I'm just going to do whatever Ihave to do, but...forget it. I don't need this.

I agree with you. She has a lot of anger pent up inside, that she needs to take sometime and let go of.
There are certain things that are hard to forgive yes, but these same things stay inside us and we use them to "protect" ourselves, but truthfully it is only damaging to ourselves. She definitely needs to find it in herself to forgive.
There are good dudes out there, its just that some women never give them a chance, or there to busy being angry about the last guy.
I've been with a angry black woman before and it wasn't fun because I always felt like I had to make up for all the things the previous guy did wrong.
Being the good guy is hard, because there are a lot of women who take advantage of that or there are some who don't want the good guy.
I don't know why, its not like they enjoy crying when the otha brotha plays with there heart.

My advice to this women, is to take sometime and invest in yourself and stop looking. When "You" are straightened out, maybe try to find a guy who has the same moral standings as you (they are out there) Like a devote christian who is also waiting for marriage. You can't expect a man who is sexually active to just stop having sex. If he isn't used to controlling his hormones you can't expect him too.

@N2Deep

Most of the comments here weren't helpful; they were a direct attack on me. I simply decided this wasn't what I needed; I need to talk to someone who isn't so busy trying condemn and pass judgment on me.

It's not easy to just come right out and talk about what my issues are when I am attacked when I do it. The reaction of the majority of the commenters was not one of being helpful; you went right to criticize, condemn and cast aside. That reaction only led me to shut down and go on the defense; besides, you can't expect me to get anything out of such comments.

Just as you know who and what you are better than anyone, I feel the same way about myself. Just as you know you are a decent person who respects women, I know I haven't done anything to deserve the way I am treated and regarded by men and there is nothing anyone here can tell me that will make that true. Most of the time people do absolutely nothing wrong to deserve the ill treatment they receive from others and I am no exception.

As far as the whole sexual talk, I don't care to talk about it, but the men I meet do. Whether or not sex is important to men is irrelevant; if he brings it up in conversation and I change the subject and he keeps bringing it back to sex, I simply get up and leave, hang up the phone and/or cease further communication. You don't have to be a breast man to want sex.

All I'm saying--and all I've ever said--is it would be nice to meet someone who was more interested in getting to know me as a person. What is so wrong with that? I suppose it's perfectly okay for men to behave as they want, but it's a crime for me to call them on their behavior. That's been the case since before forever. It's perfectly fine for men to behave badly, as long as I say nothing about it.

There are plenty of women out there who have ill treated by men, just like there are men who have been deeply hurt by women. Just like men don't want a woman who is only interested in his bank account, I simply would like to meet someone who is interested in more than just my body. I would love nothing more than to be able to dress pretty, but I know I won't be able to without calling attention to myself; after all, it's my fault men respond to me as they do. What really gets me is I was the one in the hot seat and I was the one held responsible for someone else's behavior; it didn't matter if I said I wasn't doing anything to elicit such a reaction. Everyone just assumed I'm out here drawing attention to myself just to reject people. What a load of bullshit, really.

People change. Some people, anyway. All I needed was to be able to talk freely and I realize I can't do that. I'm always the one engaged to resolve problems and issues; I do all the listening to other people's problems and this time I needed someone to listen to me. I would never have attacked anyone the way I've been attacked here. I have no way of knowing how such comments affect people.

Contrary to what you might believe, I do want to meet someone. I don't think my standards are high; still, I don't think I'm asking too much for a man to conduct a conversation about something other than sex. I don't think I'm asking too much for men to take notice that I do have a working brain.

Instead I look at all my cute clothes--most of them still with the tage on them after five years--that I will never wear outside my room and wonder if it's even worth it to keep trying. I look at all the expensive makeup I've bought and wonder if I will ever wear it. Same with my perfume. I've done everything I can think of to ensure I'm not the problem, but it doesn't matter. As far as everyone is concerned here, I'm the problem. I probably wouldn't have become so defensive if I wasn't attacked in one post after another. There were only a few posts that didn't criticize and attack me and for that I am grateful. And no better off than where I started.

@Da Throne

Have my cake and eat it, too? That's what you think this is? Wow, I had no idea just how much you really didn't understand. It doesn't matter at this point.

So basically I should adjust myself and go ahead and give these men what they want, even thought I'm not getting what I want. Men are not obligated to change, but I am. Seems fair to me.

Okay, it's easier to just go along with everyone else and it is better to be a follower than to be a leader. I get it now. In order to fix my problem, I have to be like everyone else and have meaningless sex with a procession of different men every few months. That is just what I should do.

As far as your opinion that there has been some good advice here, well, it's just that...your opinion. Some people may agree with me and most just want to come down on me and that's fine. Apparently I'm asking too much to expect men to act like they have some damn sense.

Maybe I am sexually backward to most. I don't consider myself to be so. I am simply holding myself to a higher sexual golden standard and simply put, I don't feel like I should give myself to any man who isn't doing what he should to deserve something so special--to me, anyway.

I may not be of any value to anyone, but I am valuable to myself. And if I don't value myself or respect myself, I sure as hell can't expect anyone else to do so. Like I said, I will give a man a chance, I just won't give him a pass.

I don't think I have an issue, but since everyone thinks I'm the one with the problem because I place more value on myself than most, okay, I can accept that I have an issue. I just didn't realize that my frustration about men's behavior was more of an issue than the bad behavior of men.

@Da Throne

I don't feel like I'm issuing a blanket indictment here. Simply put, I have standards and I have expectations of behavior and I don't feel like I should have to settle for less because men don't want more. I also don't think I'm judgmental either, but I know you're going to believe it anyway, so that's fine.

My thing is just this: You believe men are decent--maybe because you are one--and I'm not being fair. Well, my experience is different. You might believe that all women are just a bunch of game players and that is fine because it is based on your experience.

I"m not talking about what everyone else sees and thinks; I'm talking about me right now. This is about me and my experience and my reality. This is what I deal with everyday. I guess I shouldn't have standards so then I don't have to be responsible for myself; aftert all, having standards is the real problem, isn't it? I should set my standards in favor of the 99% of men who think that sex is nothing more than recreational activity; none of them value me, so I shouldn't value myself either. I can be just another woman who meets a man, sleeps with him and after the sex, of course, he decides it's not going to work out and then I get to do it all over again with a new man. And I get to repeat it time and again.

What man is going to buy the cow when he can get the milk and meat for free? WHat man is going to respect a woman who is willing to sleep with him without a commitment? It's not like a man is going to have sex with a woman and then find it so good that he's going to drag her out of bed and to the nearest jewelry store and buy the biggest diamond he can afford and marry her on the spot.

If men want sex, fine. They can WANT sex all they want to. They can even want it from me. I'm just tired of men using it as a way to get to know me. Nothing serious will ever come from sex and I need more than just to feel good in bed.

The bottom line is this: I'm tired of men always running to me, dick first. They don't want to give me their heart or their love, but I can get unlimited dick. Give me a break. This is what I have to look forward to. I wonder if you would feel the same way if women only wanted your money and nothing else. But I guess that's different too.

I'm asking for more than to have my wishes respected. I want to be respected and I don't I have to take my clothes off in order to get it. No man is going to respect or want a woman who's been with ten other men. I already know men see things differently and women have to see them the same way if they want to get a man.

I disagree with you on both sexes being responsible for the current state of dating. I'm not responsible for how men behave. I don't make men play four women at a time or cheat on their wives/girlfriends; I don't make men lie and play games and mess with someone's feelings, just like you didn't make me decide to wait to have sex or go out on dates with deadbeats who said one thing and did another. Everyone is responsible for their own behavior, whether good or bad, and the burden belongs on those who behave badly, not the ones who did everything right and still got screwed in the process.

I condemn these men because they are not living off their experiences; they are only out for themselves. Men do have this whole, "What's in it for me?" mentality, especially when it comes to relationships. I know what I can and can't--or should I say won't--compromise on. And keep in mind that just because a guy is in the bookstore doesn't mean he doesn't want to get laid or isn't looking for or expecting sex as part of the dating exercise.

I realize that what I'm looking for may not exist. That's okay; I'd rather know that upfront than to keep weeding through all these sex-focused, sex-motivated specimens posing as good men.

I'm well aware that men want sex. And you are right; there is nothing wrong with wanting it. But what is so wrong with wanting more than that? That's all I'm saying. I suppose I should be flattered that a man finds me attractive, but I simply think there should be more. While I enjoy compliments--who doesn't?--about my attractiveness, at the same time I don't want it to be the focus. It would be so wonderful to meet someone who can talk about more than that. I simply want mainstream conversation. I mean, aren't men capable of talking about more than sex? I know I am.

I may be unique in this respect, but sex is something that does not enter nor occupy my thoughts or my world. There is so much more to a person than that--or so I thought--and it's interesting to get to know a person deeper, to know them beyond sex. Am I expecting too much?

I don't know. All I do know is my experience--I don't spend much time around black men, so I don't date them...no, that's not true. I don't spend any time around them; not too many run in my circles, social, professional and educational--has been with white men and even rarer with black men when I manage to go home and it's always a play for a fling, an encounter, a one-night stand. It's not just about choosing or not choosing to accept or deal with it at this point; it's simply about men and the fact that they don't seem to want more, even though they say they do, that they act like they want more when they really don't, that they say they are really okay with waiting when they're really not. Some blunt honesty would be nice instead of being told one thing and it's really another.

I know there are plenty of women who know what I'm talking about. One thing I do know: Sex changes everything. And what do you do when in a relationship and you're not on the same page as your partner? Feelings have a tendency to be hurt and that was my point in my original comment. Women--some, if not all--are getting tired of having their hearts toyed with and their feelings messed with. I know there are some men in the same situation, who have been hurt by women time and again.

My issue is just this: it doesn't matter where I meet men, sex is always going to be a bone of contention, so to speak, because men want sex. These men are accustomed to having sex in a relationship and more likely than not never encounter a woman like me everyday. I totally understand better than you realize that I cannot expect men to change, even though I think some of them should; at the same time, I don't think men should expect me to change my views just so they can get what they want. This leads to a stalemate and it would be wonderful if it ended there, but some men...I've had to change my number and email address several times; now I just have one for that purpose.

This is something I will have to contend with if I want to meet someone, but I know there are some people who aren't feeling the whole casual sex thing. I know there are people who don't see sex as a big deal. The thing is, people aren't wearing a sign that identifies their views and most aren't honest about it, either. I am watching a documentary on sex and it is refreshing to kow there are people out there--women and men included--who feel the same as I do.

@Shannon

You should get out of the circle that you are in because there are too many bad behaving men in your circle. It doesn't sound like those people respect you enough so why do you still involve yourself with them?

Can you tell us about what you do enjoy without telling us what you dislike about men and sex and your circle?

I think several people have been trying to be helpful but what exactly is it that you are looking for?

Maybe if you added black men to your dating pool then you might have different experiences.

Well put Elle !!

I have to say I somewhat agree with Shannon I encounter the same things all the time with men. All they want is sex sex sex and more sex but the way I deal with it is if I wanna jus have sex with the man than I will but if I want more I will not. I think a big part of the problem on the dating seen nowadays is that women jus accept whatever to have a man!!!!!!! I feel a lot of women jus settle for whatever so they won't have to be alone. If men aren't use to being made to wait for sex or court women or get to know women on a personal level it kind of makes women with higher standards the odd ball out(I know from personal experience) So the best way to deal with this is to jus keep it move'n when you see you and him are not on the same page. I use to get angry too but now I have no problem telling a man I want a relationship that will lead to marriage and if that's something you're not interested in we no longer need to be in contact with each other. It's will take some time to find the person that's jus for you but without the bad experiences you wouldn't be able to identify the right man if you hadn't bumped into all the wrong one's along the way(In order to find your prince you do have to kiss some toads) It will all work out jus wait and see !!!!

I gotta say... Thanks to EVERYBODY!
Even if Shannon isn't taking what you said to heart just know that somebody else is.
She prolly goes through these arguments with alot of ppl.
Hopefully one day all of these comments won't be for nothing.
Hopefully she will realize that a couple of 'good' guys tried to help her see the light and not stay in darkness.
I think its commendable that N@DEEP,Throne, etc. all tried to help her... (good to see men helping)
Maybe one day she will grow up and realize that life is too big to stay on the 'sidelines'.
Live ur life ur way!
BTW...Heres hoping we can get to 200 comments!!!

Well, I don't think I'm being nearsighted here. I'm no different from men, though, when it comes to what I want. My issue has always been men and their obsession with sex.

I spend all my time--and I do mean all my time--in the company of white people. That's not a bad thing, though. There are no black people at all where I work and none where I live. There aren't any in my classes and since I take classes online and only meet with classmates when we have group projects or study groups, all the students I encounter are white.

I like my circle for one purpose: I know I can rise to greater heights there. I run in circles with people who are really plugged in; after all, when it comes to climbing the ladder, it's not what you know, it's who you know and the network reaches far and wide. What makes it hard for me in my circle is that for the most part it's a good ol' boys club and most of the veterans resent my presence and my ambition. The younger men welcome me; they will engage me in conversation and invite me out to lunch and even to hang out with them outside the office. They make a great effort to include me in everything that the veterans about to retire keep me ignorant about. These guys go to bat for me when it comes to recognition and raises and performance reviews, even defending me when I refused to train a man who was to be my supervisor. They helped me to get the promotion to HR, where I am now.

I date every then and again and every once in a while I encounter men who lead me to believe they are really into me. The problem comes in when these guys expect to be "rewarded" for their efforts, which can run the gamut from bringing me a Coke to opening a door to paying for lunch/dinner.

There was a time when I dressed up and got my hair done and wore makeup and went out a lot. Because of the reaction I got from men, I got really angry about it and everyone always told me it was my fault. No matter what happened, it was something I was doing. Over time, I slowly stopped everything. The first thing I did was stop going to the hairdresser and over time, I stopped pedicures, going to the gym, even the trips to Bath and Body Works. I still bought clothes, but stopped when I decided not to dress up anymore.

Now I dress up only for dates and even then I only wear pant suits. Hair in a bun and no makeup. Still the same reaction. Now I don't go out as much, but the reaction is still there. I stop dressing up altogether, favoring baggy sweats over form-fitting jeans. No more outings. I stay closer to home.

Now there is no reason for the reaction to still be my fault, but it is. As far as my shape, because of my medical history, I can't have surgery; I wouldn't do it anyway even if I could because I'm not willing to take such drastic measures. I don't think I'm hiding out; socializing is not something that comes naturally to me; I don't have friends, not local ones, anyway, and I don't buy/wear dressy clothes anymore because I don't want to be blamed for the reaction I get from men.

Living my life isn't the issue for me. I live it just fine. I'm not like most people; I don't have to connect with people or go out to have a life. I simply focus on activities I can do alone and there are many. Dating was something I decided to give a try because I just wanted to try it, but not much has changed over the past ten years or so.

I did date a lot more in the past, but I stopped back in about 2000 or so. I got tired of the pressure and the stress and it just wasn't worth it. Time passed me by and I decided to give dating one last ditch effort and it was the same, despite my efforts. It didn't matter where I met these men; the reaction and result was the same.

I'm not angry because men want sex. I never was. I'm not angry because men find me attractive. I never was. I was never angry about anything about my situation...I'm simply frustrated. My frustration stems from meeting people who say they can accept my terms and conditions in one breath and then attack and condemn me for them later.

Being a psych major doesn't mean I can be nonchalant about these things; I am still a person. Everyone experiences rejection and frustration and want and desire and I am no exception. It doesn't matter how well-read in psychology one is; rejection is still a painful and uncomfortable experience, especially when one is rejected after initial acceptance.

It's not just as simple as, "Okay, he is not feeling you, move around." It doesn't work that way, not for me. I am perfectly capable of coping with and lving with the decisions I have made for myself. I know I'm not like most people in that I don't have to reach out to other people. I simply wanted to find out if was true that men don't want empty, meaningless sex. So far, I've found nothing that supports they don't.

I don't think my standards are so high that a decent man can't reach them. I think it's more that they won't even bother to try; why should they when they can meet someone who will give them what they want, i.e., sex? I hear all the time that men--and some women--can't live without sex; well, how do you know you can't if you've never tried it?

Da Throne asked the question, Why does it have to be one or the other? Why can't it be both? Apparently his position is a man can love a woman's body as well as her mind; the issue with that is such a thing is rare. I know a man will not stay with a woman who will not have sex with him and loving her mind will only designate her as a friend, nothing more.

I never said it couldn't be both. I would love for a man to love my mind, but I know that to expect a man to fall in love with my mind is unrealistic. I'm aware of everything everyone has said here. I was aware of it before it was said. I was also of the belief that waiting to have sex made men respect you and want you even more. I guess that was another hypothesis proven wrong.

Most of the men helping me don't seem to realize that what makes a good man/woman is relative and people are subjective when it comes to themselves. There is no prerequisite list or requirements because everyone is seeking something different; it's not uniform. For instance, sex is very important to most people; it's not important to me and won't be until I am married, if I ever get to that point. We are all different people and we have different objectives.

The funny thing is, I don't need professional help. I know for most people, solitude isn't something one actively seeks, but I feel at peace when I'm alone. I don't feel out of place or out of touch and it's the one moment I can just focus on my thoughts; that's why I love my office.

One sided compromise is surrender. How does one compromise on something so important and special that so many consider not to be a big deal? How do you compromise on sex?

*shrugs* I give up. *throws in the towel*

I really don't know where she or other women who have mentioned it always meet these sex crazed guys. Makes me wonder what am I doing wrong that nobody is trying to get into my pants ... LoL I feel rejected now

My experiences do not match theirs at all. For some reason, 8 out of 10 (no actual numbers) men throw a ring at me in hopes of me saying "yes". Finding a guy who wants a commitment is not an issue. What I need to work on is my decision making skills as they pertain to whose ring I actually accept. But that's a different story for a different day.

@lola289

Thank You!! from the heart! : )

I feel as a man the only way to understanding women is through women. I have a lot of women friends who share things with me and I want to understand because I have a mother, sister and daughters. I use to think all about what I can get but I am glad I learned. The thing that I learned about a woman is that if you can reach her that she will give you everything she has even beyond her ability. I Respect that fully. This is why I can give my all for a woman to be able to find happiness and to show that this is a man you can count on to not hurt your heart.

@Shannon

I've been told that if you want the same results then keep doing the same things. I don't know how long you have been living where you are but it's evident that you have changed yourself as much as you posibbly could and are getting the same results. To me that leaves your circle and the things you do everyday and week. You have to change those before you can give up on all men.

I know they say it's who you know but the reality of that is that it's "Who You Are" that really matters. If you know the top people and they don't like you for whatever reason then they are not going to help you anyway.

I believe that it is important to you because your fighting like hell for it and I appreciate you giving more insight to your situation. You seem to be reaching the peak of what you are able to get out of that situation. You are getting your education, status and experience and seems like your finances are good but you don't seem to be able to find what you are looking for in a mate.

You seem to be accustomed to staying to yourself and rarely date so why not a long distance relationship? Why not a man of a different race? Are you fighting to conquer the good ole boy or are you ready to settle down? The only compromise you really need to make is career (staying where you are doing the same things) or happiness( maybe trying something new). You don't have to change your values but you need to give others a chance outside your circle. You might be surprised at how many men would be willing to do what it takes without you even having to direct them!

@Malia

You are right on. She just seems want some kinda of support group to tell her she is doing the right thing.

Thats why I said you cant go around treating you vagina like the holy grail. She already said one guy thought told her that he feared her perception of sex was unhealty. And he felt it would continue once they are married.

I for one love a freak. It ensures that sex will not be a problem. Which is one less thing I have to worry about. But if I have to go through all this red tape and bad attitude just to do something thats healthy in a relationship. I wont even bother. And I dont know any man that would.

OMG!!! My head is spinning! LOL. Malia, I agree with you as well as some others on here (da thRONe, Elle, N2deep). Shannon, really it may be time to get out of your own way. Life really should not be a fight, least of all when it comes to love. You may be your own worse enemy. "Free your mind, and the rest will follow".

Relax, relate, & release...

LOL! This is ba-nanas

You cannot be helped.

Maybe the reason isn't that you DON'T want to have sex, but that you're perfectly willing to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on and on

about why you won't.

Enough already, we get it. Poor you. Bad men, I'll push them into the volcano for you.

@Malia

That's the thing. You really don't get it. Yes, I go on and on and on and on about why I won't have sex because I'm being attacked for wanting to wait. I'm being told I'm wrong for treating my vagina like the Holy Grail. I'm told I need to change my expectations, but that isn't the issue. The issue is I'm not willing to have sex and that is the central problem.

Here's the thing: Having sex isn't my problem. I'm just not willing to do it under the same circumstances as the majority. I am well aware that I am in the minority. What really gets me is everyone is talking at me and not to me. No one is listening and that is why I feel I have to go on and on and on and on and on about why I won't do it that way.

Here it is: I can change my expectations for men. I can accept that men expect sex as part of the dating exercise and won't date a woman he can't have sex with. I can change a lot of things, but the fact remains that I'm still going to wait to have sex and that is what I think no one really gets or understands because it's not something they would want or do for themselves. I understand that and always have.

I know it seems to you like I'm just complaining or looking for someone to validate what I'm saying or feeling or just to agree with me. I've already had a few women relate to and agree with me, so it's not about that. It just seems like I'm wrong for doing what I think is right and defending my beliefs, for respecting my body and expecting men to respect it as well. It's just a disappointment that everyone thinks something has to be wrong with me just because I have values and respect for my body.

@Malia

That’s the thing. You really don’t get it.

I DO get it, I just don't agree, I have a different perspective. You've written the same post, repeatedly, by just changing the words:

You don't want to have sex outside of marriage
Your body draws unwanted attention you can't escape
Guys will still enter into a relationship with you, pretending that they are OK with your stance on sex, only to get mad when you ain't getting it in
Random strangers make lewd sexual comments to you
You've responded by covering up your body as best you can and become a bit of a recluse

I GET IT.

People stopped suggesting you have sex DAYS ago, after you responded a few times, yet you still keep harping about it.

People stopped suggesting you may have something you should change to stop attracting these men DAYS ago, but you still keep harping about it.

You have SELECTIVE PERCEPTION, you focus on what you want to focus on, no matter what's being presented to you. I'm probably the third of 4th person writing this about you.

If I knew you in real life-- girl, I wouldn't take your calls. Every one would be a pity party of the same old song, the one you've repeated here like a broken record.

THAT has more to do with your woes than anything else. Even when the subject changes-- you still on the same old, same old.

You just wanna whine.

I've known enough people like you to know it when I see it.

You don't want to change your condition (well of course because you've done EVERYTHING to change it), but you constantly want people to listen to you lament about it.

Debbie Downer.

All these other people here helping you (including me), close the browser window and go on about living life, HAPPILY, JOYFULLY, ABUNDANTLY.

So keep doing you, because trust, something about this is working for you.

OK I clicked & Malia, you had yet another good one. Now it is time for me to follow your advice & get the hell on! LOL. It's a beautiful day in da neighborhood down here in the ATL so I'm OUUUUTTTTTTT..........

@ Da Throne

You are totally missing the point here. Okay, a man waited on me for over a year. No pressure...at first. But here is the thing: We are still not married. We are only dating and I made it clear in the beginning that sex will be reserved for marriage. Now what am I compromising for and why? I already made the expectations clear in the beginning. If we were planning to marry, then he would have seen the light at the end of the tunnel because we would be married soon and he could have all the sex he wanted.

Why does it have to be that I'm being selfish with my body?! I mean, I'm making it clear that there will be no sex until marriage. After a year, still no marriage. Still dating. What the hell did he expect? For me to suddenly change my mind and go against my word and have sex anyway? That wasn't what I told him in the beginning; I said no sex until marriage and that is what I meant. I'm concerned about the overall relationship; you are going on and on about the sex part. A healthy relationship isn't only about sex; it's the whole package and it is the whole package I want. Being selfish with my body--damn, Da Throne, you make it sound like I have a toy and won't share it with anyone. This is my body I'm talking about here, not a goddamn tray of cheese samples in the deli.

*Since I don't get a chance to read each and every post, I may very well be reiterating some things and that is not my intention. Don't assume I'm just whining and/or going on and on about the same shit. I try to gloss over a few comments and respond to them at the same time, but it doesn't always work out.

WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is this Shannon under an alias??

I think so. Her way to keep it going, and going, and going,and going, and going,and going............

@ Shannon and her convenient accomplice

blah, blah, blah.....*sigh*......*gag*.....this is so last Tuesday.....

there are some people who LOVE to revel in their problems &
there are some people who find solutions....

@Alkai (or you sure you arent Shannon male alter-ego?)

Because your doing the same thing she was doing. Completely ignoring whats said to make a pointless point.

I never said intimacy=sex. I said sex was a part of intimacy. How about you take some time to comprehend what you read before asking a question.

And what does connecting with a person on every level have to do with marriage? You can. No you really would wanna be clicking on all cylinders before you go popping or saying yes to the big question.

How long does it take to have the bond that your looking for? The only time I would say I was officially on that level with a female didnt take me more than a year to know I was there and she was the one I wanted to spend my life with.

Marriages should be is an announcement. Not a transformation! So in laymans terms marriages needs to be the grandopening. Not just the construction site.

And let me LOL@ we can talk about sexual compatibilty. Just because I talk to a surgeon doesnt license me to start cutting people open. I have never once that met a person who thought they were bad in bed. But I have slept with enough chicks that suck enough to know talk is cheap.

What it all boils down to is this. You can make all those same connection without having to get married to do so. Nobody has said or suggested go out and be whore-ish. But know if you dig in your heels and refuse to budge that you most likely will be unmoved and single.

Now Im done talking to you as well.

I'll try to keep this short:

1. To answer the question of where I am meeting these men that throw rings at me I'd say everywhere (online, real life). I am aware that this answer doesn't help you. But it is the truth.
Quite frankly the best relationships started online - not through dating sites or anything you may think now but in forums or groups of common interest. That way I got to know part of a person by reading their stance on different subjects, I was able to see how that guy handles opposing viewpoints and so on. No romantic notion or sex was remotely involved. Just people talking like we do on this blog for example. Things started out as purely platonic online buddies who exchanged emails and chatted every once in a while. Commonalities were discovered and over months and months attraction developed. Then a decision to try it romantically with each other was made and both parties committed to being exclusive and making the relationship work. Fast forward some more months and then the physical side came into the picture. And between 2 - 12 months into the relationship I was proposed to.

Which leads me to 2.
When you said you were DATING a man for 18 months, did you two agree on being exclusive? Did you refer to each other as boyfriend/girlfriend (as immature as those terms may sound once you pass your 20s)? What is your definition of being COMMITTED?
I am totally with you when you are saying you do not want to have sex without a commitment. Same here. If I am not worth the title of the girlfriend/significant other/life partner/whatever, a man is not worth my time and definitely not worth me dropping my panties.
However, I do not equal commitment with marriage. Ultimately, yes. But not upfront.
Being that English is not my first language I have always struggled with the term "dating". To me dating does not sound as if a person is serious. Dating consists of going on dates. But dates are really only good for getting to know and interviewing each other in an effort to determine whether a relationship would be a good idea. How much getting to know can one do before he or she knows that the person they are seeing is a good catch or not? Or in other words: it doesn't take a whole day to recognize sunshine. Ergo: there is no way in the world that I will be DATING a man for a year. If we can't make up our minds and decide to be in a committed relationship we should stop wasting each others time. Elle wants a title, sorry to say it.
So my question is: did you and the guy you were seeing also spent time (go on dates) with others since you were only dating and not in a relationship? And if you guys were being exclusive, why didn't you consider it a commitment?

And that leads me to 3.
To an extend I can understand why the guy you were seeing for such a long time gave up eventually. That is if my assumption is correct that you guys were solely DATING and not in a COMMITTED relationship.
Looking at it from his point of view it may seem as if you did not trust him after all this time. He proved over the duration of months that he was in it for you (at least that's what it sounds like) and not the sex - since he didn't get any. Yet and still you didn't trust him enough to share your body with him. If I was him I'd wonder if I should put my trust and my faith into a person if that same person cannot do the same for me. If you don't trust me, how can I trust you? The fact that he had doubts about the future may have stemmed from said trust issues on his part.

If you don't trust him to call what you had a commitment but solely dating, why would he trust you that what he is holding out for is actually worth it?
Were you waiting for him to press the issue of dating vs. committed relationship? Or is dating directly followed by marriage?

All my questions are honest questions as I am trying to see how you tick.

Oh and Number 4.
Why don't you consider a relationship with Alkai? Sounds like the perfect match.

I guess I couldn't keep it short after all.

A few questions: How many people would be willing to commit to someone who has had several hundred partners, especially in a very short period of time? How many men would be willing to commit to a woman only to find out later that she slept with several of his friends and maybe even a few family members? How many women would be okay with being committed to a man who has slept with just about every woman in a 25-mile radius or even worse, every woman int the room at a party or some social function?

That's not even common. Is this where it's going to go? let's bring up extreme circumstances and discuss those. Girl, stop.

I can’t let a man have my body if he isn’t going to care for me or my heart. Does anyone really understand what I’m trying to say here?

And you can get married and he can cheat and/or leave you. So at what point do you stop making your decisions based on fear?

Look, wait until marriage to have sex. No problem.

Nobody wants to hear your endless BSing about getting f*cked then dumped. Save it. That shouldn't even be part of the equation.

Nobody wants to hear all your "my body this and my body that". That shouldn't even be part of the equation.

When I dated these men for so long, I always went to them and talked about a commitment and they always said they weren’t ready for that.

It was stupid, yes STUPID, to keep dating them after that. Your fault as much as his.

If you just want to wait until marriage to have sex because it's in your best interest, then have the grown woman conviction to stick with that.

All your endless babble just makes it seem like something up for negotiation, or a desire to be the focus of conversation.

I feel like this: (me personally): I'm an adult woman, making sound decisions, I don't have to justify or explain to anybody. Getting into a discussion about WHY is a move of weakness that indicates that you're open to negotiation or counter reasoning. Shut it down. Let it go.

Or just whine incessantly like you're prone to do, because you haven't said anything new. Just copy and paste from past responses and save yourself some time.

Regarding this "male friend", yeah I'mma need some IP address checking or some verification before I fall for two people having the same writing style.

@ Malia

That's bullshit. It is very common; you just don't think about it when you sleep with someone. No one really does. I'm sure you don't consider that you are sleeping with everyone your partner has slept with and all their partners and so on. Well, whatever works for you...

But it doesn't matter at this point. And as far my friend goes, you don't have to believe he is real. I know he is and that is all that matters.

In case anybody is curious (and even if you aren't) my Avatar name "Alkai" comes from the name of the brightest star in the handle of the Big Dipper (Ursa Major) called Alkaid. The word Alkaid means "Leader of the Procession"

I’m sure you don’t consider that you are sleeping with everyone your partner has slept with and all their partners and so on.

I've not spoken about my sexual behaviors or practices so back off with making assumptions just because I don't agree with your incessant whining.

Part of your problem is making broad, sweeping generalizations about people who don't agree with you.

That’s bullshit. It is very common
Well if you are in circumstances where you are constantly dealing with men who have slept with most of the women at a social function, or have run through most of the chicks in a 25 mile radius (that shit isn't even logistically possible), or racking up hundreds of sexual partners in a short time, you need to change your circle.

You are talking about EXTREMES in sexual activity, girl please. Do you. It's obviously working for you.

@Sherel

Glad to hear that. I was kinda hoping I wasn't the only one who requires an emotional, spiritual and mental bond before sex.

It's nice to know that those types of intimacy can be experienced without being married.

But, for myself, (not saying anybody should agree with me) I'd rather be married than single.

Nothing inherently wrong with being single. I'd just prefer to be a companion to a woman and share exclusivity with her.

It's a nice feeling to be loved more than all the others she could have chosen to be with. To realize that she chose me and she accepts my love for her.

I realize I'm probably never going to find the type of relationship I'm looking for... but I can still dream.

I met a nice gentleman for coffee a few hours ago and we had a wonderful chat. We talked about many things and for the first time I felt optimistic. Things were going so good and then the man made his move. "I would like to invite you back to my place for the evening," he said to me.

I tensed, but stated my position and was ready to stand my ground as usual. "I have make you aware that I am an old-fashioned woman with old-fashioned values. I do not engage in premarital relations. I hope this will not pose a problem."

To my surprise, he didn't object or go off like so many others. He sat back in his seat and said, "Well, okay, if that is your position, I won't try to cajole you into spending the night with me." We simply parted ways and just before I left, the man took my hand and kissed it and gave me a hug. He held me back at arm's length and said, "It sure is nice to see there are still some young women out here with proper morals. You are the first young woman I have ever met with such views and I applaud you for it." He turned to leave and said, "I'm sorry we weren't a match--I'm only in town for the evening and wanted female company--but I hope you remain inspired to hold to your beliefs. So few young women still hold to such values. You are on the right track, believe me," and afterward he walked me to my car and left to catch his plane.

Now that was an experience that left me feeling positively optimistic. That was the first time I'd ever met a man who supported my position. It's nice to know there is at least one man out there who doesn't think something is wrong with me.

*Alkai, you don't count, .

@Alkai or whoever you are

You know that you really want to hit that Dawg!! Don't you?? We won't tell. If you are not her then you damn sure know what she wants and after a few more posts you probably will be an atheist too..... Work that shit dawg I see your angle!!LOL

Dude you sound like you may be a candidate to be a monk or something and it's good to know who can take part of the blame for filling up shannons head with some whack ass advice. You two really don't need to give each other advice because yall are fucking up the game.

You are entitled to your beliefs and all that but both you guys are very contradictive. You had sex outside and it wasn't satisfying but you had multiple orgasms WTF more did you want? I have been with a girl where it wasn't satisfying so after I popped I was done but it took you a couple of times to realize GTFOH! You are no different than any other man who did things and then changed! That's what your friend fails to realize that people can change. Didn't YOU?

I want to try this one time and let's see if this works. I want to give advice for you to interpret for your friend!! OK I would appreciate it as well as so many that are fed up.

Tell your friend that it's just as selfish to expect a man to compromise his beliefs in order to satisfy her beliefs.

Tell her that in the real world just because a man doesn't say things out loud doesn't mean he is not thinking about it. "Her circle of friends who are helping her to the top!"

Tell her she needs the advice of a man that wants sex all the time in order to understand why "All Men" want sex. Advice from someone who feels the same way is bias and onesided and doesn't give any insight to answer her constant question of WHY!

Tell her that she should actually listen to what people say verbatim and take the positive intent instead of taking offense. I hear the people that understand but none of them went into the depth of complaining because they also said that they went through it and times changed. Some even miss a little of the attention but they still kept on living.

Tell her that most men will chase as long as there is hope of the hit!! When they know for sure they can't hit then thats pretty much ball game. I wanted this one girl for years and one day I finally hit. There was always a little tension there and we never talked about (_ _ _) ( you know who might be watching so I still can't use the word!LOL until we actually did the damn thing!! If she told me that it won't happen until this, this and that then I probably wouldn't have stayed in contact with her and thats just being real!

Tell her also from a man who can hit everyday if I could that about the only times I don't think about (_ _ _) is when I'm getting enough. Even then I might look at my women and just want to see her lose control when I make her cum!! I love to see a woman being pleased. The way she locks her legs around you and arches her hips to hold you on the spot and then she looks in your eyes as she cums while her body just tenses up and shakes!! Man thats some beautiful shit!

and if all else fails tell her you guys should get together skip the intamacy and SEX each other... You can say oh God.. she can say Oh Shannon...and maybe we can get a break!!LOL

Shannon & Mr. Shannon, you guys are entertaining, yet intellectual, trolls.

Y'all need more people. The more you write, the less I believe. A really "chaste woman", with old fashioned values, who doesn't want sex til after marriage, comes to a blog that's what? 50% about sex, to defend her position. Riiiiight?

Y'all are funny.

I gotta say... all of y'all are a mess! ROTFLMFAO!

Seriously....

I really, really tried to see logic in Shannon's posts, I think there was a glimpse here and there but there is one major flaw I just can't let by.
Let's say that Molly (name totally made-up - I'm kind of tired of talking about Shannon all this time), so Molly meets this wonderful ( let's call him Tom), loving, caring, respecting, funny, intelligent, totally in love with her, *insert your own requirements you consider necessary before you even start thinking about tying the knot* and they've been together for some time. Why would Molly require a marriage certificate nailed to their bedpost before getting horizontal? Is she suspecting Tom's planning personality change and just wants to make his life harder when he does?
If she's not and the trust and loyalty are there - why demand that paper in the first place?

Also, I'd really like to know how Shannon ( BTW, has anyone else started associating her name more with a definition of a certain viewpoint than with an actual name?) - how she came about going for a casual coffee with an " in town for the night" stranger. Just curious...
I'm with the people who say he's Shannon's brain-child, but for the argument sake- how?

@ Sherell * applauds*

So, taking this a little further - the reason why all Shannon's relationships with men fail is essentially ... because of Shannon's personality ( I won't go as far as calling it -shallow-, but the statement about her circle being just the means to the top, makes one wonder...).
And the only reason her ego can push the blame away is by * cue drumrolls*
piling it on lust-driven, brainless and rude monsters with their reproductive organs hanging out on the outside.

Alkai, don't even bother anymore. It doesn't even matter; I told you about the evening at the bookstore and the man I met, who was passing through waiting for a connecting flight to Chicago and the conversation we had, so you have more details than I had time to share here, so I don't expect them to believe it. I know it happened and I never said he was looking for sex; he was looking for female company, i.e., he asked me to have dinner with him and was actually shocked when I told him my expectations upfront.

Don't even waste your time here. I feel fortunate to have a good friend who shares most, if not all, my sentiments and you gave a good account of it here. I have to realize I'm simply from a different world than most people and I have different standards that are important to me and while they are not privy to my everyday life, you are and you get more details than I share here.

I'm not going to bother anymore. I am different and I can accept that.

AMEN

LoL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

OMG!!! This topic is pretty heated. I do hate the fact that black women tend to be labeled as "angry" when it comes to relationships. I beg to differ that it is all "her" and that you get what you put into a relationship or companionship. No one individual is perfect. There are many women who have bad experiences, some of them even try to change their perceptions of how they view men. Life happens, and sometimes the residual effects can be devastating. I got married at the age of 22 and was married for 7 years. There's nothing that I would not have done for my ex. I loved him more than I loved myself!!!!..........Mistake #1 that some tend to make. There were times that I was the reason for our disagreements or frustrations and vice versa........but what hurt the most was for him to tell me he no longer loved me because I had not conceived a child within the first 2 years of our marriage. I don't really know what is classified as a good man, because I actually felt that I had one at one time.....and yes, I WAS MAD AS HELL!!! It's a thin line between love and hate. When someone constantly gives and never seems to get anything in return, emotions can feel the brunt of the effects. I am not saying that I am not willing to give 100% again but at the same time, there are somethings I just will not tolerate certain things. As far as the type of men she tends to attract, she might not carry herself in a bad way; but men are very sexual beings. From what I have been told and observed, men tend to become physically intimate before becoming emotionally intimate. I feel her pain and I do understand how she feels to a certain degree.......but wanting to live life single and unhappy is indicative of some serious emotional pain that needs to be dealt with.