Who You Calling a Bitch? (A Loss of Gender Roles)

Great post, Ans!!! Everywhere I turn there is this topic. I need a window seat. OK. Many of us aren't married. Plenty of us are happy anyway and a lot of married people are not! Still there are plenty of stories about happily married couples too, which I prefer to hear instead of this. I think women AND men want equal partnerships and are learning to find contentment in other places outside of marriage, which is NECESSARY!

I will come back and answer your questions later. It's a beautiful day and I'm going shoe shopping!

I don't think that there is a difference with women on whether they had a father in the home, or not. I think it is really how you are raised. Just because you had a father in the home doesn't mean you had a GOOD father. And even if you had a good father, it doesn't mean they TOLD you anything. I say that because I have girlfriends who have parents that are married 50 yrs or more & their relationships are no better than someone raised by a single parent. Were you nurtured? Did you see a loving relationship? Were you told what to look for , expect in a love relationship? That all plays a role.

I think the mother's role is important...to men AND women. I had a girlfriend who was raised by her father. Her mother died when she was a little girl. She was one of the angriest,most bitter people I ever knew. She had no feminine presence to her. Was that because she was raised w/o a mother? Who knows? However, she had a loving father so what does that mean? I do believe that men & women who do not have good relationships with their mothers are more damaged than those who don't have good relationships with their fathers.

I do believe that men have certain roles, and women have certain roles.

I define a good man as a man who is not afraid to be honest with himself & me... no matter the cost. He is responsible. He is kind & loving. He has common sense. He is not easily led, nor is he completely rigid in his ways. And again, he is kind & loving & responsible.

I have used bitch to and about a woman. One of the phrases that I latched onto very early in life was Hemmingway's reference to his own mother as "An All-American bitch." I believe it can be both positive and negative. But like a lot of other words it also incendiary in so many ways. I was not offended by Helena Andrews use of the term as the title for her book. I thought it was funny when Tina Fey used it on SNL but even funnier when Tracey Morgan said "But black is the new president, bitch."
The same people who go around saying the feminist movement has failed women of this generation, I believe share a brain with the same ones who say the Civil Rights movement have failed black folks of today. That argument is specious at best.

I have read some of Helena Andrews on Root.com and while she attempts to be provocative she fails to follow through very well and so I know I won't be buying her book. Can't speak to anything else.

I think I have referenced in this forum my own belief that quality of a woman's relationship with her father or a father figure growing up, greatly impacts her relationships with men. Yes, the same goes for how men and their motherly relationship. Basically when we lack a secure relationship with a nurturing figure in our life of a opposite gender it impacts ones ability to gauge opposite sex relationships in a good context. There are exceptions.

I think the nuclear family structure has not been as adaptable as it could have been to address so many of the social changes that have occurred over the last 50+ years. Our society is in a state of flux, the real failure is that many of our social institutions, government, religious, academic have been too caught up in being a bulwark against societal change rather than working to best navigate those changes. What I encounter is too many people who were never given the sorts of solid fundamentals of common sense that undermines all the advantages of technology and opportunity we have over prior generations. Too many folks leave home into the real world with very little idea of how to deal with the day to day of life.

As my HS math teacher use to always say:"Common sense is not as common as we think."

Ok its like this,

I feel that only black people pay close attention to the use of the word "bit*ch" towards black women. I socialize with people who come from all sorts of backgrounds and not one time has anyone who wasn't black asked me "why does the black culture refer to their women as bit*ches?"

For this African American woman, life is perception. Perception is attuned to whom you surround yourself around. I choose not to surround myself around people concerned with the color of my skin. This includes those in my family, my future and my social circle.

Its not that I don't pretend the issue of "bit*ch" doesn't exist. What it is my brothers and sisters, lol, life is too short to get hung up on any particular subject matter. I don't care if it's about color, gender, stereotypes, sexuality, political affiliation or the like.

Surround yourself with positive people, people who laugh at when they were referred to as "ni*ga" or "bit*ch", people who focus on a positive future and people who focus on change.

My motto this year is "KEEP IT PUSHING", and I completely support this sisters book, but um, keep it pushin, i don't give a rats as* regarding the correlation between "bit*h" and a black woman. Its petty and won't go down in African American history.

I don't really trip on the word "bitch" mainly because me and my friends don't use it towards each other. And I've never called one to my face. It really depends on context, but this Helena Andrews chick needs to stop spreading her bitterness everywhere because that ish is like a cancer that is spreading rapidly!

How much of an impact do you feel a woman’s relationship, or lack thereof, with her father have on her relationship with men?

As a woman who was raised by a single mother, I've been struggling to answer this question. I would say that it had more of an impact when I was younger because I had not yet learned the importance of having a two parent home. Similarly to Helena, I viewed men as "secondary to my happiness" and "not necessary", in fact, I was under the mindset that I only needed a man to have a child and then he could go along his merry way.

Fortunately, my mindset changed as I got older and actually understood how unhappy my mom was being alone and by having various life experiences that helped me to realize how critical it is for children to have both parents in their lives, especially in setting their expectations of life and their future relationships.

Presently, I'm not aware how or if my father's absence has had an impact on my intimate relationships (or lack thereof), but it is something that I constantly think about.

Do you agree with Helena’s statement that men should be men and women should be women?

I agree with this statement wholeheartedly!!! I believe that men should provide physical, emotional, financial security and should be the head of the household. In essence, he should be able to hold it down and do whatever needs to be done to take care of his family. I think that in this age of women's independence we tend to strip "deserving" men of these attributes because we are so used to doing things on our own or we think that by allowing him to do these things somehow takes away our "control or power". I don't believe that allowing a man to be a man has to negate the instrumental role women play in the relationship. It does not mean that men should make all the decisions, or that they have to be the "breadwinner", or that women are not equal partners in the relationship and that their place is in the kitchen or taking care of the kids. It's not that black and white. Simply stated, however, what it does mean to me is that the man that I marry will respect and value me and my opinion and vice versa, and as a result, I'll be secure in knowing that we're always working towards a common purpose.

Some of you have mentioned women who have active and involved fathers but still have issues with men in relationships.

In my personal experience, every single woman that I know, who has an active and involved father, but still has serious issues with men, their fathers were adulterous. It ranges from habitual cheating to clandestine affairs, to surprise siblings. Every single one.

I wonder if you all have observed the same?

Not only does the father have to be present and involved, he can't wreak havoc with drama like cheating. Even if he does get better and the parents stay married, it seems the end results are just as bad as an absentee father.

Malia, I agree wholeheartedly. The father who is IN the home cannot wreak havoc on that home. Fathers who constantly cheat on their wives tend to create a cycle that also continues with their SONS. We tend to view the women as the ones walking around with the problems while the men have none...or at least it is not an ongoing topic. I have met & known alot of men who had fathers who were not faithful husbands. These same men repeated the cycle while being IN the home. However, in order to cheat & create other families & such that means that they have a good block of time AWAY from home. Of course most people think children don't know. Eventually they will know.

p.s um ...is it Ans?

ur editing system sux! lol!

As Rasta stated, Bytch can be used and viewed in a positive and negative manner depending on circumstances and situations in which it is used, but I do not go along with thinkin of it as a general title or descriptor of women. As is the case in most everything, parental relationships and interactions or the lack of such, can be detrimental to one child, but a catalyst for over-coming adversity for another child, so it partially depends on the make-up of the child. I would agree that it is more probable that a child raised with a mom and dad in the house, who are dedicated parents always seeking to further their own understanding of children and parent/child interactions is likely to yield balanced children who have more successful relationships that not, but there is a lot that goes into having a balanced and functional family and household, so it isn't automatic.

Its not a word i normally use to describe people. I might be the first to say "Lifes a bitch". However i have overheard sistas refer dto each other with that word (good morning bitch) and it sounds hilarious. Its just not something i would do. Like they say, its about context.